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New I'm curious.
For O'Reilly friends (marlowe, beep, etc. - you know who you are). Why do you think that remaking the world in our image is going to work any better for us than it did for the Soviets, the Romans, etc.?

bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New We got staying power... and we are better disorganized.
b4k4^2
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - IT Grand-Master for President
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]
[link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|2004, the year Microsoft develops for Linux ]
Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
The DHS [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberspace_strategy.pdf|Cyberer-Stratergery]. The ultimate in Cyber.
New Rigggghttt
We've been around, how long? 227 years?

Let's see...

Second Punic War, -218 BC
...
Attila, about 450 AD

450
218
---
668 + 1 = 669 years in business. Yep, we're all over'em.

(At the rate we're going we'll be lucky to make 300.)
-drl


Light is heavy:
R{} = (2R/W)T - (1/2W){D-2,D-2}W

Heavy is light:
(D-3)(RF[] + 5/4 g) = 0
Expand Edited by deSitter April 21, 2003, 12:13:21 PM EDT
New I think he forgot the sarcasm tag.
New Uh...
[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]
b4k4^2
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - IT Grand-Master for President
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]
[link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|2004, the year Microsoft develops for Linux ]
Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
The DHS [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberspace_strategy.pdf|Cyberer-Stratergery]. The ultimate in Cyber.
New Hey, at least you earned your .sig... :)
New Huh?
O'Reilly?

I've only had access to Fox News for a few months...and from what I have watched of the "Factor" I don't know what all the fuss was about.

I like Matthews better for sheer entertainment value and he's MSNBC.

Dunno what you mean by your question. The easy answer is you picked the wrong guy to ask...cause I don't.

Of course, if we were to do it like the Romans and the Soviets...well anyone presently bitching about the interim situation in Iraq should be dead already..and why hasn't Mexico been made a state? They've got oil, cheap labor supply...you'd think we'd have taken them over by now.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Re: Mexico
Wasn't that what NAFTA was about? Why take on the social problems when you can get tax-free access to labor?
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New Oh yeah...
...and we got Canada in that deal too.

Sweet.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New You think NAFTA was a good idea?
If so, how? Looks like an excellent tool for accelerating the polarization of wealth to me. But then, given the content of most of our arguments, you might consider that a good thing. ;-)
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New Only if...
..its polarizing into my pocket. Which, by the way, it isn't.

Interesting theory, though. I've heard alot of things about NAFTA but the wealth polarization angle is a new one on me.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Really?
I thought the wealth redistro-up effect of NAFTA was self-evident ;-)
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New Not with respect to Canada, at least.
We have a number of Canadian employees who love NAFTA.

You see, they get paid in US dollars, and they get to take them back across the border where the cost of living is measured in Canadian dollars. NAFTA is like a 50% raise for these folks, once they start working across the border in the US.

YMMV. ;-)
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Bill I think you also forgot...
[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]
b4k4^2
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - IT Grand-Master for President
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]
[link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|2004, the year Microsoft develops for Linux ]
Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
The DHS [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberspace_strategy.pdf|Cyberer-Stratergery]. The ultimate in Cyber.
New Was it really necessary? Probably, so thanks.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New We're a much better model than they were.
But if you really can't see any significant difference between the US and these, I suppose there's no point in attempting an intelligent discussion with you on the topic.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Victory was the answer - to a great many problems.
When the facts speak for themselves, only a fool insists on having a debate.
The future is leaving the station, the US is at the throttle, and the Left isn't on board.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
New Thoughts
It is interesting to see the attempt to draw an analogy between
the U.S.A and the Roman Empire. The implication being that the U.S.A is headed
the same way ...... but much faster. Absent from the discussion was any clear attempt
to set forth the reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire. This was a shame because it
could have proven interesting and possibly illuminating.

There is room for debate about what caused the fall of the Roman Empire
but among the reasons which historians set forth are the following:

1) Weakness of leadership due to indecisive leaders and dilution of powers.
Leaders were strong enough to achieve and hold on to power.....but not strong enough
to adequately defend the Empire.

2) Weakness of the Roman Army.
The Roman Army was actually quite small when viewed as a percentage of the population.
They enjoyed great success due to better organization and military tactics.....but
they were not unbeatable. They enjoyed great success by running over thinly distributed populations.

3) Weakness of the population itself. The Roman Army had trouble recruiting
suitable candidates (put simply, too many romans were fat dumb and happy. Sound familiar?).

4) Appeasement of the Barbarians. Contrary to popular belief...the Barbarians
were not out to get Rome...... they just wanted a better life for themselves.
They entered into treaties with Rome to help defend Rome in return for land concessions.
This gave aspects of the Empire a porous quality.....allies with questionable allegiances (sound familiar?)

5) Early small victories by warring tribes which went unanswered gave confidence to others that the Roman's could be challenged (sound familiar?)

While most would agree that the western Roman Empire fell......
the eastern Roman Empire morphed into what is referred to by historians as Byzantium. And this survived very well until it was overrun by the Ottoman Empire (I honestly would be curious to know about what contributed to its
longevity vs. the West ....... but I don't have time to google and I've used
what free time I had writing this).

Contrary to what some may want to believe......the Roman Empire did not crumble from within. They did not fail because they were trying to "make the world in their own image". There is in fact ......strong evidence that Rome assimilated and adopted much ..... especially from the Greeks.

"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
New Byzantium
Mike posts: I honestly would be curious to know about what contributed to [Byzantium's] longevity vs. the West

In that case, stroll over to your local library (or, if you're not averse to a cash outlay and your community is the kind that supports real bookstores, stroll there--or mouse over to amazon.com) and secure John Julian Norwich's magnificent History of Byzantium, either in its original three-volume form or in its one-volume abridgement for the answers to this and just about any other question you might have on the subject. Lord Norwich is a serious historian and an urbane stylist: five stars. Also highly recommended is the same author's History of Venice.

cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New Just curious......
.... what insights into the issue did you gain from reading his work?
"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
New Re: Just curious......
You appear to have answered the question in #97901--these are the same conclusions that Norwich suggests, although I must say that I took away from his account a measure of surprise that the rickety edifice of the Eastern Empire didn't collapse of its own absurdities centuries earlier.

cordially,

[edit:typo]
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Expand Edited by rcareaga April 23, 2003, 02:16:05 PM EDT
New Sometimes I just love the internet....
...and sometimes I worship it.

[link|http://www.essaybank.co.uk/free_coursework/3086.html| Why did the western empire fall when the east survived?
]

"The Eastern Empire had many intrinsic advantages over its Western counterpart. It was agriculturally more fertile, more populous and had a far shorter frontier, and in this period was relatively free from external attack. Indeed, the East only fought its traditional enemy, Persia, twice in this period. However the East shared many of the political, social and economic problems of the west, but perhaps to a lesser extent. So why did the West fall? We must surely point to the presence of foreign tribes within the empire as the primary reason. These tribes not only fought the Empire, but their presence reinforced and added to existing internal problems. The west\ufffds need for extra military strength placed a huge burden on the peasantry and caused a decline in output, whilst persistent internal problems added to an unstable political climate. In contrast the Eastern Empire never housed any foreign tribes. It is therefore reasonable to suggest that the presence of barbarian tribes was the primary reason for the Western Empire\ufffds decline."

-Mike

Granted...one opinion.
It's also a decent read on the fall of the West.
"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
New Another one . .
. . though not yet universally accepted - disintigration of the minds of the leadership from lead poisoning. Heavy use was made of lead vessels and equipment for preparing food for the upper classes, and particularly in the making of wine. Wine, being acid, and long exposed to lead in the making, would absorb plenty of lead, so yes, it was the wine that did it.

Many symptoms noted by writers of the time are consistent with lead poisoning.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
     I'm curious. - (mmoffitt) - (21)
         We got staying power... and we are better disorganized. -NT - (folkert) - (4)
             Rigggghttt - (deSitter) - (3)
                 I think he forgot the sarcasm tag. -NT - (inthane-chan) - (2)
                     Uh... - (folkert) - (1)
                         Hey, at least you earned your .sig... :) -NT - (inthane-chan)
         Huh? - (bepatient) - (8)
             Re: Mexico - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                 Oh yeah... - (bepatient) - (6)
                     You think NAFTA was a good idea? - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                         Only if... - (bepatient) - (2)
                             Really? - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                 Not with respect to Canada, at least. - (admin)
                     Bill I think you also forgot... - (folkert) - (1)
                         Was it really necessary? Probably, so thanks. -NT - (bepatient)
         We're a much better model than they were. - (marlowe)
         Thoughts - (Mike) - (5)
             Byzantium - (rcareaga) - (3)
                 Just curious...... - (Mike) - (1)
                     Re: Just curious...... - (rcareaga)
                 Sometimes I just love the internet.... - (Mike)
             Another one . . - (Andrew Grygus)

Mother Hubbard got me covered, like Sarah Lee on her cherry pie.
293 ms