Post #90,610
3/23/03 9:59:05 AM
3/23/03 10:01:33 AM
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Look in the mirror
Is the US a model society? Can you say that US society is so healthy? How many people in the US do not have access to health care? How many people are unemployed in the US with little hope of finding a job? How many homeless? How much wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few? How free are the elections? etc. How many seats in the House will actually be contested (what is teh re-election rate something like 98%)? In fact, according to you, the US is engaging in a completely unjust war against Iraq. As your religion says he who has no sins should cast the first stone.
If anything given the circumstances, Israel has been a a continuation of Twain's point. The Jews a speck in the population of the world, in 50 years created a modern democratic state in the face of unyielding antagonism and terrorism.
Edited by bluke
March 23, 2003, 10:01:33 AM EST
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Post #90,611
3/23/03 10:04:50 AM
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No
No, we aren't healthy, because the very same type of religious atavist wants to be in charge here. There is always the hope that we will correct ourselves - as a columnist put it, support for W is "a mile wide and an inch deep". The separation of church and state may save us from the rapine of the God squad. You have no such opportunity - you stand not on your feet, but on your vivid imaginations - not on principle, but on Mosaic injunction - and your state does not exist for any reason other than to enshrine one viewpoint, one God, one order.
-drl
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Post #90,613
3/23/03 10:12:57 AM
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You are so wrong about Israel
Israel is actually a democratic state which is moving further away from state imposed religious rules as we speak. In truth, most of the population is not religious and is very secular. The current government is secular and is overturning many of the existing religious rules.
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Post #90,614
3/23/03 10:16:55 AM
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Then why don't you treat your neighbors better?
What is the sticking point? Let them have their state. You can count on US protection for the duration. Why are you so resistant that the Palestinians have a home? Why can you not open Jerusalem to all those who choose to claim it as a religious place? You should be proud of this - perhaps Mecca could be opened to Jews as well.
But it will not happen, because you will never trust each other to live and let live.
-drl
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Post #90,615
3/23/03 10:28:11 AM
3/23/03 10:35:52 AM
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Very simple
It is hard to trust someone who for the last 50 years has been trying to throw you into the sea. A little history, and some facts.
1. There are 22 Arab states comprising more then 99% of the land in the Middle East.
2. In 1922 Britain took most of Palestine and created the Arab state of Jordan
3. In 1948 the Jews accepted the partition plan the Arabs didn't.
4. In 1967, Israel offered to negotaiate right after the 6 day war and received in return the 3 no's of Khartoum.
5. In between the Arabs have committed many terrorist attacks such as the killing of Israeli athletes at the Olympics in 1972, the Entebbe hijacking in 1976, the blowing up of buses in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in 1996, up to the current atrocities.
6. In 2000, Barak offered the Palestinians a state, a share in Jerusalem (in response to that Arafat denied teh Jews claim to Jerusalem) etc., in return he received war.
7. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a best seller in many Arab countries
8. The new Palestinian Prime Minister is a public Holocaust denier.
9. From 1948-1967 when Jordan ruled the old city of Jerusalem every single synagogue was destroyed and of course no Jews were allowed.
10. Various Arab groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Islamic Jihad, etc. state publicly that they want to destroy Israel
The fact is that an overwhelming majority of the population according to every poll is willing to accept a Palestinian state. However, not until the Palestinians stop the terror attacks and show that their state will not just be another Arab anti-Israel dictatorship.
Btw, forget about Saudia Arabia letting Jews into Mecca, first they have to let them into the country.
Edited by bluke
March 23, 2003, 10:35:52 AM EST
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Post #90,616
3/23/03 10:34:15 AM
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Blah blah blah
Clearly you both have to tear up the playbook and start over. But you won't - stuck in the past. Atavism.
-drl
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Post #90,617
3/23/03 10:41:37 AM
3/23/03 10:45:44 AM
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Easy for you to say from where you sit
When your very existence is on the line it is a different matter. What you fail to understand is that it takes 2 sides to make peace. If the other side denies you the right to exist, you can try as hard as you want peace is not going to happen. You dismiss my concerns, however, look at the change that has occurred in the US after one lone terrorist attack. Now imagine, this happening over and over again for 50 years after a history of 2000 years of persecution.
What is your solution, what should Israel do?
Edited by bluke
March 23, 2003, 10:45:44 AM EST
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Post #90,700
3/23/03 1:02:15 PM
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Re: Easy for you to say from where you sit
What should Israel do?
1. Divorce religion from government.
2. Agree on a boundary for a Palestinian state, which must include the West Bank - a place you must leave forever, or at least until you are civilized enough to get along with your neighbors.
3. Get the settlers off the West Bank.
4. Publically humiliate the fundamentalists. The loonies over here have a hard time establishing a foothold because their archaic viewpoints are the subject of scorn and derision. See 1.
5. Shut your borders and stay inside them. Since you can't get along with anyone, stay the hell home. Same to the Palestinians.
-drl
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Post #90,621
3/23/03 10:48:33 AM
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hey dee, get a published quote from a palestinian leader
that sez they will be satisfied with less than all of israel for their state, them come back and argue somemore.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
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Post #90,623
3/23/03 10:54:02 AM
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That will be the day he is assasinated
Unfortunately the Paletinians have brainwashed their children into complete hatred for Israel and the world has helped by standing by and letting them sit in refugee camps for over 50 years, something that is unprecendented.
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Post #90,637
3/23/03 11:16:43 AM
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brainwash-and-wear
Unfortunately the Paletinians have brainwashed their children into complete hatred for Israel
Israel's own actions of course have no bearing whatsoever on the opinions a Palestinian child might hold in later life.
"Sure, they bulldozed our house, but it must have been for some worthy public works project."
As Ashton might say, I. Think. Not.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #90,652
3/23/03 11:38:15 AM
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You missed the point
Before 1948 whose house had Israel bulldozed? From 1948-1967 whose house had Israel bulldozed? Yet, the Palestinians still were brought up to hate the Jews and Israel. How many Palestinian houses do you think hve actually been bulldozed? The fact that Palestinians are still sitting in refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria and other Arab countries 55 years later is a much bigger part of the problem.
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Post #90,656
3/23/03 11:40:51 AM
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your missing the point, Viega thinks you should all leave
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
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Post #90,670
3/23/03 11:56:28 AM
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Clearly not
If I had a realistic and humane solution for that mess I'd put it in writing and wait for Stockholm (Oslo?) to call.
Actually, I favor American noninterference in Israeli affairs.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #90,658
3/23/03 11:42:45 AM
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From "The Glittering Prizes"
"Israel was paid for with the blood of six million Jews!"
"Maybe that's not what the Arabs wanted for it."
--Frederic Raphael, The Glittering Prizes (novel & teleplay, 1976)
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #90,661
3/23/03 11:46:23 AM
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With 22 countries
and 99%+ of the area of the Middle East is it too much to ask? In 1948 when India and Pakistan were born there was a transfer of population over 20 million people switched sides. The fact is that between 1948 and 1953 over 800,000 Jews were forced to flee Arab countries to Israel.
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Post #90,664
3/23/03 11:50:11 AM
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Then scrap your previous plan.
That's the WHOLE point.
What has been done is NOT working.
Nor do I see any way that it WOULD work.
All I keep seeing is excuses for why you have to keep killing them.
And their excuses for why they have to keep killing you.
And the "justification" for both based on how someone killed someone else 50 years ago.
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Post #90,667
3/23/03 11:52:14 AM
3/23/03 11:54:28 AM
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What do you suggest?
As I said it takes 2 sides to make peace.
In fact, Barak did exactly that, he said enough interim agreements lets make a deal and made a very generous offer, basically all the West Bank and Gaza and a compromise on Jerusalem. We all know how Arafat responded.
Edited by bluke
March 23, 2003, 11:54:28 AM EST
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Post #90,699
3/23/03 1:02:04 PM
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Actually, that depends upon your view.
As I said it takes 2 sides to make peace. That is true, if you see the world as "us" against "them". In reality, there are MANY sides in this issue. Israel's problem is that it treats ALL the Palestinians as terrorists. That is why Israel does not see a problem with rocket attacks against an apartment building, as long as Israel kills the "bad guy" it was going after. Even Yasser has/had to deal with different factions in his organization. Work towards reducing the problem. Find the factions that Israel can work with and help them expand their power base. Work with the other nations there and through the UN to get those factions some land of their own. It doesn't all have to come from Israel. Hell, you have the maps. Offer them something GOOD like the chunk where Egypt, Israel and Saudi Arabia and Jordan meet. It's water front property. I'd have a bit of trouble selling that to Jordan, but it could be done. If not there, slice bit from Israel, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. They'd end up with access to the Mediterranean Sea. If you can't stand for that either, then move them over the Gaza strip and run it up along the border 'tween Egypt and Israel. But get the UN to buy into it so you can get UN support for weeding out any terrorists (without helicopters shooting apartments) that try to setup a home there. No Palestinian is born a terrorist. They can be raised that way. And Israel can help raise them that way. Or Israel can help those who are NOT terrorists to setup a better life for themselves.
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Post #90,733
3/23/03 3:28:13 PM
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another vote for transfer YES :-)
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
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Post #90,739
3/23/03 3:52:18 PM
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Not far and to a GOOD spot.
And that most likely means that some people in Israel will have to move.
And this will NOT be all of the Palestinians. This will be small factions that are willing to live in peace with the Jews.
So, initially, the Palestinians would have MORE land and Israel would have LESS land.
I trust that you've looked at maps of the area. Any problems with the locations I've picked?
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Post #90,743
3/23/03 3:55:15 PM
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Nope, I dont live there so its fine with me
as long as there is a defensible spot for me to get to if needed.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
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Post #90,697
3/23/03 12:53:20 PM
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Not defending those people either
My ideal solution involves and asteroid breaking into two pieces and landing on Jerusalem and Mecca simultaneously, but of course God would never be so kind.
As stated, Allah and Jehovah are the same God of intransigence and absolutism.
-drl
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Post #90,633
3/23/03 11:12:29 AM
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Read these forums.
You'll see LOTS of very specific criticisms of our government, its policies, our society, etc.
Many of us recognize that there are problems.
And we do NOT resort to "well, OTHER [countries|people|religions|whatever] are WORSE.
This isn't about OTHERS.
This is about recognizing the problems in the society/government that you happen to be in and working to fix those problems.
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Post #90,638
3/23/03 11:19:04 AM
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And in fact the same thing goes in Israel
Read Haaretz in English 1 day, there is tremendous criticism of the government at times. In fact, this is exactly what separates Israel from the Arabs. In Israel there is an organization called Peace Now (which in the past has had demonstrations of over 400,000 people not bad in a country of 6 million) which is pushing for peace between Israel and the Arabs, I am still looking for the Palestinian Peace Now movement. When a Palestinian even hints at compromise (like Sari Nuseibah) he is immediatley threatened with death. Sharon the PM of Israel has stated publicly that he supports a Palestinian state, when is Arafat and other Arab leaders going to state unequivocally in Arabic that Israel is a fact and is not going away.
The fact is that the one Arab leader who did this, Sadat, got everything he asked for, Israel withdrew from every inch, of course he paid for that with his life.
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Post #90,955
3/24/03 12:19:03 AM
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Nobody has any handy "solutions", obviously. Mine:
I lied. I may be a fool, but not so stupid as to imagine there is a nice 'logical' exit from this nasty situation. And *I* Have It [!!] FWIW - I accept the root-cause of the stalemate to be ~ as you (bluke) have asserted: the utter intransigence of the 22 surrounding Arab States. Not their unwillingness merely to "compromise / somehow settle": but their reiterated bloody vow that, They will accept nothing less than the complete eradication of the Jewish State and the "pushing into the Sea" of its inhabitants.I have seen NOTHING to date which ameliorates, modifies this concerted Arab Goal. If this does not define a situation which spits at any possible idea of peace -?- What Have I Missed?
Very simple
It is hard to trust someone who for the last 50 years has been trying to throw you into the sea. A little history, and some facts.
1. There are 22 Arab states comprising more then 99% of the land in the Middle East.
2. In 1922 Britain took most of Palestine and created the Arab state of Jordan
3. In 1948 the Jews accepted the partition plan the Arabs didn't.
4. In 1967, Israel offered to negotaiate right after the 6 day war and received in return the 3 no's of Khartoum.
5. In between the Arabs have committed many terrorist attacks such as the killing of Israeli athletes at the Olympics in 1972, the Entebbe hijacking in 1976, the blowing up of buses in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in 1996, up to the current atrocities.
6. In 2000, Barak offered the Palestinians a state, a share in Jerusalem (in response to that Arafat denied teh Jews claim to Jerusalem) etc., in return he received war.
7. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a best seller in many Arab countries
8. The new Palestinian Prime Minister is a public Holocaust denier.
9. From 1948-1967 when Jordan ruled the old city of Jerusalem every single synagogue was destroyed and of course no Jews were allowed.
10. Various Arab groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Islamic Jihad, etc. state publicly that they want to destroy Israel
The fact is that an overwhelming majority of the population according to every poll is willing to accept a Palestinian state. However, not until the Palestinians stop the terror attacks and show that their state will not just be another Arab anti-Israel dictatorship.
Btw, forget about Saudia Arabia letting Jews into Mecca, first they have to let them into the country.
A close-enough summary with no obv. fakery I can spot; of course - one could add volumes, but these few points will do for just here. From my perspective a long way away, the land-area measurements describe well the absurdity of Israel ceding more of its infinitesimal fraction of the land: to create a walled-plot to be inhabited by people no less willing to randomly kill any Jew found, as right this minute ?? What stands in the way of any resolution is what has stood there for centuries, IMhO: that massive level of hypocrisy which is always some form of xenophobic Us/Them and which appears to be the root of Fundamentalism everywhere. It is personally rationalised always by the exact equivalent of, My God is Bigger / Yours Sucks. And this IS the level of intellect of apparently, much of the world's population - carefully cultivated from mothers milk on. (No less-so in Murica; we're just more polished in our hypocrisy .. via our jillions of euphemisms for casuistry towards 'Others', here or abroad.) This atavistic madness manifests identically in the USA, where the Real God of the USA [the $$] maintains separation of the same reptile-brain instincts as operate in Arab/Jew dichotomy. Ditto in Iraq, where the dictator maintains separation among the opposing Arab-strains of The-One-True-Allah - - by Force / by Fear. No, I have no blindingly obvious antidote to Stupidity this long-lasting and blind and deaf - either. And Ross's polemic is YAN nice theoretical exercise from afar, long on preaching and short on New Ideas (other than: just let the Jews give the Arabs whatever will make them happy, including an extinction clause in the unstated foot-notes). I believe that the stalemate cannot -like the Gordian Knot- be ended by Reasonablemess on one side. I imagine that, and typically - only some Huge Shock - might galvanize an appearance of mutual humanity, freed momentarily from religious cant instilled before the age of reason. And even if this is so - you Cannot administer by premeditation: such a Shock! By definition. Meanwhile the odious stimulus-response game of numbed sleepwalkers will continue, despite the cluck-clucking from such as the US contingent.. still AMAZED that Disneyland might be invaded! by an external reality experienced by the vast majority of humans on the planet; much of that influenced negatively by our disinterest and greed. We are pre-adolescents here. Luck; may some with brains survive! - these are in diminishing worldwide supply, as Disneyland know-nothing non-culture spreads like AIDS of the mind. Ashton
I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the intelligence. There's a knob called 'brightness', but it doesn't work.
Gallagher
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Post #90,958
3/24/03 12:29:45 AM
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The only thing that will work INHO
is to have Israel make concessions that would balance them on the edge of extinction and have a large portion of the current population of jews killed in the resultant kiyiing of arab massing to finish the job with the results on al jezeerah all the time. The shock "might" propel humans to indeed allow the jews some breathing room if the old europe allowed US ressuply of Israeli weaponry. On the other hand, the PA might accept what was given grudgingly and become the nation they so obviously deserve by looking at their expats in action. Business, industry, far thinking manipulation of the trading world to their own and neighbors enhancement.
crap shoot all around.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
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Post #91,025
3/24/03 10:47:16 AM
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The only thing that will work...
...is if the whole ME is turned into an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland.
Hell, the various freaks would STILL be fighting over THAT is my bet.
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring.
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