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New Now expressible
Enough of the key people involved have been informed that the situation is no longer secret.

Early next year I will be Grandpa Huber.

And you are saying "Mike, I didn't realize you were that old" or "You never mentioned any adult children."

Well, I'm 40 and my daughter is 16. My youngest child is 6. This is, obviously, not a situation anybody intended. But it is what it is, and we respect my daughter's choices - she intends to raise the child. She will continue to live with us - even if she wanted to get married she can't at her age in this state without parental consent, and that ain't happening. Our family is going to be a bit larger, a bit outside the standard model. But we stick together. She won't be a single mother struggling to survive, and we won't be sacrificing to help out, there will just be another baby in the house.

My big challenge at this point is to come to terms with how I feel about the slug she got the other half of the DNA from. He means well, he's nice to her, but Ghod is he a loser. 18, smart in a purely book sense, can't hold a job because he knows everything. No plans. No dreams. No personal hygene. No freaking bank account - I'm not complaining that he doesn't have any money, that doesn't bother me, who has any money at 18? But he hasn't walked over to a financial instituion and signed up for a place to put a paycheck. He asks my daughter to hold the money for him. And he's just plain agravating. I had to cancel voice mail because he called 1600 times in one month - didn't leave any messages (I requested the logs - yep, almost every hit was from his home phone) but every time voice mail picks up it counts as an outgoing call and costs a few cents. She can handle a baby as a dependant, but if she is ever to amount to anything, she can't be trying to support him. I don't think she even likes him much. But now he's trying to be a good Dad, so I can't see him going away. Fortunately, he's joining the Army. I'm not sure whether he's going the full shot or Reserves. Maybe the experience will get him grounded. It will get him out of her hair for a while.

Anyway, I hate that little mutant worm. I'm wrong, I'll get over it. I have a lot of sympathy for him and the situation he's in, I wish him the best, but I hate his guts.


White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New That's hard
A birth should be a happy experience. You want to love your grandchild and be proud of her mother, but it's going to be hard. At least you know all that. It's the people who don't who get into all the trouble. I honestly think that knowing what you want to feel is hafway to feeling it. Good luck.
My official modern astrological sign is Telsat, with Defcomsat rising.
New Not all hard
It WILL be a happy experience. And, as always, I am proud of her.

I'm horrified by what it cost her in lost opportunities. She was planning to go to Japan as an exchange student in the Fall (we suspect that fell through before this came up, though) and was well on her way to being Valedictorian at her school (although I think Sophmore year is too soon to be thinking of things like that). Japan is off (I'm sure she will get there again someday in some other way) and the other is in doubt because she will unavoidably miss quite a bit of school which will probably bring her grades down. My wife and I will obviously do what we can to minimize the problems, but some of them are unavoidable, and she has to take care of a lot of them herself.



White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New Well, that makes the old saying...
...pretty damn literal: "You haven't lost a daughter, but gained a son". I mean, he's still a fucking *kid*, no two ways about it.

Therefore, if I were you I wouldn't "feel bad" or "like you're intruding on his parents' territory" if you try to turn him into something approaching a human being -- if they haven't managed to give him any sense of "plans, dreams, or personal hygiene" in eighteen years, you're pretty damn justified in concluding they've fallen asleeep on the job, AFAICS.

Another thing, I'm a great believer in the old "(if you weren't one before,) joining the Army will make a man out of you" thingy. And IMO, you're pretty much in a moral position to *demand* some shit of him. So my advice would be: No more "not sure whether he's going the full shot or Reserves" -- just *tell* him which it's gonna be!



(YMMV, IANAL, IANAP, IANASC, IANAMD, ETC -- but you knew all that already. Just in case you told us this because you wanted to know what we think, like; now you know what I think.)
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Doesn't Know Fucking Anything About Shit Like This, But Hopes This Helps A Bit Anyway
New Well, if it's any consolation...
My big challenge at this point is to come to terms with how I feel about the slug she got the other half of the DNA from.
Wasn't I reading the other day that the male donation is actually only 1/3rd of the DNA?

I think your feelings are understandable, though a lot depends on how fast your child can grow up and handle the tremendous responsibilities. My sister had her first child when she was 17, though in that situation her husband-to-be was willing to support the child by going to work. That's been some 17 years ago and they are doing quite well - HS graduation comes up this year.

Then again, my sister-in-law from my wife's side just left her loser of a husband. They have four kids with one that's just 3 months old. She moved back in with her parents who are now helping to take care of the kids. She didn't have her first child till she was 24, so I suppose age isn't always the essentially ingredient in these matters.

Still, it's an awfully young age to come to grips with being responsible for infant. I wish you the best of luck. The only good news is that as a young grandparent, you will get to actively enjoy your grandchild.
New Nah, cell-nucleus DNA is fifty-fifty.
And that's the kind that counts, AFAWK.

Sure, 100% of _mitochondrial_ DNA is from Mama, but... OK, I couldn't *swear* it's totally unimportant, since science doesn't yet know quite *what* it's good for -- but then, doesn't that imply pretty strongly that it probably isn't anything really vital? I mean, if it were, we'd have *noticed* its influence by now.
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New If it's any consolation
No One\ufffd has 'solved' the dilemma whereby a choice is made, that the potential er possible? = the "imagined next 'lifetime'" of a zygote:

is given equal or larger weight than - the evident, palpable and even measurable negative next consequences - to a life which has already survived the.. uncountable crises of genetics and happenstance, to date. (And effects on all surrounding persons, of course.)

Beyond the tired rhetoric of the extreme views on this popular topic of warring camps - each case invokes what you have so aptly described. How odd that our culture imagines! that the choice ought-to-be (a fav Murican Puritan busybodiness) ..somehow a legislated one! Onesizefitsall.

Obviously you/she have chosen, and hope that the negatives just might be overcome enough - that your daughter's chances shall not become reduced to [??] (whatever is most fearsome).

I'll light a candle too. Fortunately our predictions about how any offspring will 'turn out' are about as accurate as the weather for next December. If the kid has *anything* to be arrogant about! (a normal 18- quality we all recall?), he just may become civilized when, just a bit more humble. And that Will come ;-)

(Yeah too - s'okay to have the occasional desire to grab a clue-by-6 and ask: didn't you See that 18-wheeler Coming!? - where you were Standing: in the fast lane of the freeway? ^%#^%# -hole??)


Regards,

Ashton
New Choices
She made up her own mind.

She isn't old enough to make that hard of a decision, but what kind of arrogance would it take for anyone else to consider telling her what to do?

We had some good conversations, her mom and I both let her know that it is her decision, and hers alone, and we are with her and respect her no matter what. The guy's Dad insists that it is a joint decision between the two of them. And when he said that, there were almost visible eye-beams that would have been lethal if such things ever were, going both ways.

I don't know all of what went into her decision. I doubt that religion had much to do with it. I do know that she is fiercely committed to carrying the child, and would prefer not to adopt out.


White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New In a perfect world (yeah, right)
The guy's Dad insists that it is a joint decision between the two of them.

Ideally, she would feel that the right thing to do is consider his opinion. And his opinion would be that it is her decision, which he will support. Everybody wins. See, isn't this easy?
My official modern astrological sign is Telsat, with Defcomsat rising.
New In a perfect world
they'd make condoms smaller and we wouldn't be having this discussion.



Don't mind me, flipping randomly between joy, sorrow, and rage, with confusion spread over the whole mess.


White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New Or little boys wouldn't buy XL ones, to "prove" something...
New Re: Choices - not just theirs ! - yours too

I believe you are being very generous in saying the decision is hers and hers alone (incl the father of course) but the truth is the decision has to be yours and wife's as well. If your are willing then that is what counts.

If you haven't already realised the extent of your required & neccesary involvement - it will come - and the reality is that you both are going to make an equal if not greater sacrifice in the upbringing of the baby.

The youngsters have no hope of doing without aid - so the decision to have the baby & raise it is wider than just hers.

I applaude your courage in accepting this situation. Is is though just a bit sad that it is the kind & generous people of the world who so often bear the burden of others bad decisions or choices.

The really good thing about it all is that you will have the opportunity to share in and influence a new life. That is precious.

I hope things work out well for your feelings about the boy - am sure there are many of us who could have been wearing his shoes (or yours today for that matter).

Just remember that any kindness you are able to show him (for all that he is) won't go unrewarded (even if the rewards are not always tangible).

Anyway - there are a lot of us thinking of you and for you.

Cheers

Doug Marker





New It didn't feel like a choice to me
She's my daughter and I stand by her. It is no more generous than feeding myself is.

I guess it really is a choice, but this kind of runs into the free will vs. character question. Given who we are as family, and who I am, I didn't have many options.


White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New That is the way that life is
sometimes you don't really have a choice and someone else decides for you, or the way things unfold you find out that you never had a choice in the matter at all. In some cases you may have a choice, and hope that you didn't pick a wrong one.

Am I the way I am because of choices I made, or the way things had unfolded in my life that I didn't have a choice in?
"I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!"Moe Howard
New Was Abortion Discussed?
There really is the point of view that says - this kid may very well grow up unhappy and after the newness of the situation has worn off, your daughter may end up not being a very good parent for the usual reason - she's only a kid. So you end up with a troubled kid and a more troubled grandkid. Unless you yourself are morally opposed, it really should be discussed with her. This kid will certainly displace another in the future who could be raised under better conditions.

IMO abortion is a perfectly acceptable solution, but the message from society is that you are a murderer if you do that. She may actually want an abortion but fear being villified.

Also, you must feel rather guilty about it yourself, as if you failed - well don't. That accomplishes nothing.
New Yes, it was
And we made it very clear that it is a respectable option.


White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New Harder Question
IMO (and mind you, I'm not a parent) you have every right to apply the authority of parenthood to argue strenuously for *your own* position, whatever that might be - with the final choice remaining with her. Did you do that?

My sister had a kid at the age of 14. I would not want to be without my nephews now, but when I see the wreckage of my sister's life, I can only wonder if alternatives were discussed back then, and whether or not my parents shirked some of their responsibility in the matter. Am I arguing that an abortion in a 14 year old would have been the right thing to do? In a sense, yes - of course in hindsight it's sort of a meaningless argument. My nephews are here, and what's done is done.
New No, I didn't argue a position either way.
If she were 14, I probably would have. But she is a very mature 16 year old.



White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New choices
There are choices we make that dictate future choices. From the tone of your postings I'd say that this decision was made a long time ago. Good on ya for having the integrity to stick to it. The example you and your wife are setting will have wider influence than you might expect.
Have fun,

Carl Forde
New OT! Yes!!!!
Love the picture of Zidgel :)
Jay O'Connor


[i]"Going places unmapped

to do things unplanned

to people unsuspecting"[/i]
New Thinking of you and her.
I'll just reiterate what's already been said, save not to give up on the father just yet. The military can change people.
qts
New If it's any consolation...
A friend of mine worked with someone who was a grandfather at 36. :-(

I feel for you and your daughter. She sounds like a very bright girl and I'm sure you're proud of her.

There's no accounting for what hormones make us humans do.

I hope everything works out well. Best of luck all around.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Er, make that 32, not 36. 16+16. :-(
New If you're a girl, you can do it before 30! :-)
New Given earlier onset now: prolly by 24 :[
New Midwife sez: 20
My daughter is now a patient of Susan, the midwife who delivered her. Wife asked if Susan handles teenagers. She has a patient aged 10, and two 12 year olds, at the moment.

I'm not too hung up on the 41 year old grandpa thing. It's the 17 year old mom that bothers me, and I guess that isn't really so unusual. The 7 year old uncle part gets to me, too. (All ages bumped up by one, because there are many birthdays between now and the due date).


White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New Congrats!!
Congrats on becoming a Grandpa :-)

I applaud you and your family in support of your daughter, you must have an awesome family.

The pastor in our Church is going through a similar experience. His 18y/o daughter turned up pregnant (in fact, the baby was born Monday, all 10 lbs 1 oz of him!) and we've talked a lot about it. He doesn't have the problem of the how to feel about the Father, his daughter dumped him.

Don't know if this means anything to you, but I just said a quick prayer for you, your daughter, and your family.
-----
Steve
New Thanks! Re: Congrats!!
I needed that. Because this is (besides being an utter calamity) a very joyfull thing, and I'm quite excited.

Once my daughter had come to a decision, I said "this is an extremely bad idea. But it isn't an idea anymore." And she's been quoting me all over the place.

And I appreciate the prayer.

As for the father, I think my daughter will dump him if he doesn't get his act together in a big way. She's turning into the fierce mother, and anything that gets in the way of her taking excellent care of her baby is in for serious damage.


White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New learning by example
Congratulations on becoming a grandfather and on raising a daughter willing to handle her responsibilities. You (and your wife) must have done a lot right in the past 16 years. Good for you. Your continuing love and support for your daught will make dealing with the situation better for all involved. The new dad has a bunch of growing up to do. From what you've said he might be willing to do it, he just doesn't know how. Maybe the Army will teach him, if he sticks it out.


fwiw, my step-sister, who is a single mom living on her own, is Valedictorian of her college graduating class.


I'll put you, & your family, on my prayer list.

Have fun,

Carl Forde
New Thanks.
Prayers are appreciated.

The boy is going for the full enlistment. As I suspected, the Reserves don't offer enough. Sounds like a reasonably generous program for the level of commitment, but the Reserves seem to be geared toward people with reasonable outside prospects.



White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New When I was in High School
My best friend got my other best friend pregnant. They got married, he joined the Navy as he thought supporting his family was more important than finishing school.

FFWD to today. They now have 3 kids, the oldest just had a child of his own (same situation unfortunately). They've been married nearly 20 years now, and have a great marriage and family.

I know they are the exception, but good things can come of this :-)
-----
Steve
New A friend's similar situation.
A friend of mine had a similar situation - 16 year old daughter, impregnated by a guy he considered totally worthless. Being a Catholic family, there was no question about having the baby. Also, giving up the baby for adoption wasn't much considered. However, to give his daughter undiminished options, he and his wife adopted their granddaughter as their daughter. I found that an amazing response to a problem situation.


Not for a moment am I suggesting that you take my friend's solution. In his shoes, I would not have.

Grandchildren are a delight. I have one of each kind.

Alex
New I'm looking into it
I don't know enough details yet, but adopting the grandbaby might be an option. The big question is how it will affect my daughter down the road.


White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New Hiya Gramps!
Do you qualify for a pair of slippers and a cardigan now?

Seriously though, if the experience of people I've known is anything to go by, there's a few years of hard work ahead, after which things will find their own groove.

At the end of the day, UselessBoy(TM) will be history and you'll have a wonderful grandchild whom you can spoil rotten, as is the ancient and unswerving right of grandparents so to do.

My very best and warmest wishes to you and your family - it sounds like you're a strong bunch.
--
Peter
Shill For Hire
New Thanks
Yeah, this is going to be fun.

I really was looking forward to the whole Grandpa thing. Just on a different schedule.


White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New the newborn has lots to be thankful for
to be born in to a family that will care. Having met some of the boys my stepdaughter hangs around I can sympathise feel like tattooing loser on their forheads. Maybe the army will be good for the boy, the dicipline will be useful to him.
good luck,
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
     Some inexpressible stuff in my life - (mhuber) - (46)
         Sometimes we need reminding of what we already knew - (Ashton) - (1)
             Hmmm, - (mhuber)
         Act in the best interests of the other person. - (tseliot) - (1)
             Re: Act in the best interests of the other person. - (mhuber)
         Hey - (deSitter) - (2)
             Thanks - (mhuber) - (1)
                 Ok - (deSitter)
         Re: Some inexpressible stuff in my life - (qstephens)
         Come onto II? - (static)
         Re: Some inexpressible stuff in my life - (dmarker2)
         Now expressible - (mhuber) - (35)
             That's hard - (drewk) - (1)
                 Not all hard - (mhuber)
             Well, that makes the old saying... - (CRConrad)
             Well, if it's any consolation... - (CrisR) - (1)
                 Nah, cell-nucleus DNA is fifty-fifty. - (CRConrad)
             If it's any consolation - (Ashton) - (14)
                 Choices - (mhuber) - (13)
                     In a perfect world (yeah, right) - (drewk) - (2)
                         In a perfect world - (mhuber) - (1)
                             Or little boys wouldn't buy XL ones, to "prove" something... -NT - (CRConrad)
                     Re: Choices - not just theirs ! - yours too - (dmarker2) - (9)
                         It didn't feel like a choice to me - (mhuber) - (8)
                             That is the way that life is - (orion)
                             Was Abortion Discussed? - (deSitter) - (3)
                                 Yes, it was - (mhuber) - (2)
                                     Harder Question - (deSitter) - (1)
                                         No, I didn't argue a position either way. - (mhuber)
                             choices - (cforde) - (1)
                                 OT! Yes!!!! - (Fearless Freep)
                             Thinking of you and her. - (qstephens)
             If it's any consolation... - (Another Scott) - (4)
                 Er, make that 32, not 36. 16+16. :-( -NT - (Another Scott) - (3)
                     If you're a girl, you can do it before 30! :-) -NT - (CRConrad) - (2)
                         Given earlier onset now: prolly by 24 :[ -NT - (Ashton) - (1)
                             Midwife sez: 20 - (mhuber)
             Congrats!! - (Steve Lowe) - (1)
                 Thanks! Re: Congrats!! - (mhuber)
             learning by example - (cforde) - (2)
                 Thanks. - (mhuber) - (1)
                     When I was in High School - (Steve Lowe)
             A friend's similar situation. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                 I'm looking into it - (mhuber)
             Hiya Gramps! - (pwhysall) - (1)
                 Thanks - (mhuber)
             the newborn has lots to be thankful for - (boxley)

I have a horse!
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