Post #8,851
9/13/01 10:17:23 AM
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Does a religion such as this have any place
in the modern world? [link|http://news.excite.com/news/r/010913/08/odd-women-dc|http://news.excite....odd-women-dc]
As I have watched the events unfold recently (after the bombings), it has become apparent that there will be Jihad, only Israel (actually, their intelligence) will be pointing out the targets (sweet irony there) and deciding which civilizations (cultures) go forward and which do not. I strongly suspect that "nations that would harbor terrorists" is a codeword for Muslim nations that "will, have ever, or might" harbor terrorist will now be under scrutiny (actually, martial law) with the tacit approval of every "civilized" nation of the world. My guess is that there will most probably not be much discrimination between "radical Muslim groups" and "actual Muslim groups". I'm ramblling though... I guess my question is, will the women of these nations be all that upset?
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
"Putting the fun back into funatic"
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Post #8,877
9/13/01 11:54:11 AM
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False dichotomy
Those shooting and disfiguring women are not doing so because they are Muslim. Proof: the victims and those who support them against such acts are also Muslim. One should rather say they are shooting and disfiguring women because they are militant fundamentalists.
> Does a religion such as this have any place in the modern world?
Absolutely, and in exactly the same sense that Christianity has a place in the modern world, and in exactly the same sense that atheism has a place in the modern world. But don't think for a second that the events described in the article, which take place in Kashmir, take place in the "modern world". We like to think of our society as the pinnacle of the progress of civilization, and anyone who differs from our culture as backward, depraved, less than human. Do not believe it any longer. Our "modern world" is nothing more than a snapshot of a transitory society which will itself disappear one day, not to be replaced by a better one, but simply to be replaced. Many of those who replace us will decide we were backward, depraved, less than human. Do not be like them. Do not relegate those who are Other to the ranks of inhuman. Walk a mile in their shoes. This is not in support of murder or assault. This is in support of those victims who are themselves Muslim, that they have the freedom to continue to be Muslim.
I give this argument such passion and weight because I do not want the same argument(s) applied to my own faith, culture, or nation. The foundation of liberty is the equality of man, regardless of race, color, location, or yes, even creed.
> My guess is that there will most probably not be much discrimination
> between "radical Muslim groups" and "actual Muslim groups"...
> my question is, will the women of these nations be all that upset?
They are the ones who will most want the distinction between radical Muslim groups and "actual" Muslim groups.
That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
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Post #8,914
9/13/01 2:04:26 PM
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The trouble with those who are Other is...
a lot of them are out to kill us. And this is where "live and let live" breaks down and collapses into a pile of rubble.
They may not be less than human, but they're certainly less than civilized, a fact which we gloss over or ignore at our peril. That's not an opinion. It's an observation.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,918
9/13/01 2:28:14 PM
9/13/01 2:50:18 PM
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Ridiculously good points you make, but...
you are assuming that I am referring only to extremists. I am old enough to remember the women's movement in the United States. I am most definately not old enough to remember women's suffrage... In any event, after a while (and as communication improves) intelligent people question the "why"s of what they are doing. I find it extremely hard to believe that any woman with any form of enlightenment would choose to subjugate her entire being to a man who is chosen for her - GIVEN A CHOICE. I may be wrong.
What I am alluding to is that, unlike Christianity, atheism or even Judaism (with respect to the Talmud), the Muslim religion, as practiced, dictates submission of women. You must cover yourself, your career choices are limited. If I dislike you and say it three times, seeya... If I really dislike you, it is not murder if I kill you. Is this respecting a religion or complicity to the subjugation and murder of women?
As we move forward toward a more global economy/political structure, the superstitions of the third world will become increasingly scrutinized... i.e. The British occupied India for quite some time. They most probably were aware of the practice of killing female children rather than paying a dowry. The British, who were in power at that time, chose to turn a blind eye to the practice. "It is an internal affair, a distasteful custom of the Indian people"? Is this truly an enlightened viewpoint from a strictly humanistic standpoint. To say that the subjugation and mutilation of thousands of innocent people is a "custom" which we do not understand is really insulting and blatantly wrong. What's really to understand?
To assume the modern world will not impose it's unique morality upon the Islamic cultures (in the wake of the bombings and mass destruction) is like saying that the Mormons are free to practice bigamy in this country... It is an extremely naive viewpoint with a false sense of "enlightenment". Does anyone care to say that Muslim women are not WORTHY of making a decision about what they wear, where they go, what they can become, ad nauseum? Are they Muslim by choice or by fear?
I honestly believe that the Muslim nations (the menfolk) have been keenly aware of this progression and see the inevitable "evolution". That this is really why many of these people fear globalization and the Western world and lash out against it. They know that the world as they knew it will never be again and especially not now. The concept of an enlightened mind changed dramatically on September 11. The happy horseshit about the "dumb American" are now buried in the rubble beneath the World Trade Center. RIP. Welcome to the new age.
Addendum to this original message for those who think I am merely being reactional...
"At a midday briefing, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said the administration would mount a "broad and sustained campaign" in retaliation for the attacks. "It's not just simply a matter of capturing people and holding them accountable, but removing the sanctuaries, removing the support systems, ending states who sponsor terrorism," he said."
The key words here "ending states". Think about it.
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
"Putting the fun back into funatic"
Edited by screamer
Sept. 13, 2001, 02:50:18 PM EDT
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Post #8,987
9/13/01 9:47:40 PM
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Yes, the fundamentalsits fear they are obsolescent
while increasingly, and even amongst their own (bastardized version of) religion: many know they are obsolete.
I switched through a local religious station last night (Ch 42 in SF area). I was so astounded I wrote down this "preacher"s words in response to some writer (asking a question) from Texas. I misssed the Q. (Dunno who this paragon calls hisself, but he accepts donations at 800-643-4645)
His response, Every Texan knows that God wants you to use a gun if you need to.. always has.. (So we may presume the nature of the Q asked) Then he went on with some inane remark ~ ".. well, it's getting close to the weekend [saintly cackle..]".
He then launched into reply to some other letter asking his interpretation of, 2 Thessalonians 2:3; made comments like, "..rapturing a few people outta here" (via a 'false Christ' - seems you need to have your Christ present a holographic-ID). Remarks about "One verse Charlies" who, "don't teach ALL of the word.." And. So. On.
Presumably the only cross-religion concordance extant is: amongs the "Fundament-[remember its root]-alists" within each divergent True religion. These appear to share a common goal sanctifying the most primitive and ignorant instincts, calling these God's Word.
And there are millions inculcated as primitively. No one knows how to fight mobs with mindsets ~ Death=God's/Allah's Special Reward for horrific acts committed. Perhaps that lore shall be accumulated next.
Who knows where next this all shall lead except towards, those oft mentioned interesting times.
A.
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Post #9,078
9/14/01 11:43:30 AM
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It sure doesn't seem to keep them from having one
final party... This article paints a decent picture of one of the first cultures that will be destroyed (RIP)
[link|http://www.echonyc.com/~onissues/su98goodwin.html|http://www.echonyc....goodwin.html]
The world has gotten much smaller during the past 200 years. These nomadic tribes, like most other endangered species on the planet, really have nowhere to find sanctuary anymore. In our anger, it's unfortunately easy to have the attitude, "let them kill eachother... great". I can't help but be haunted by the picture of the boys. In a past life, I was stationed in Turkey and witnessed a boy very much like the one in the center of the photograph almost beaten to death for "allegedly" stealing a loaf of bread. After the anger subsides here, I'm hoping that we will be able to discriminate between the perpetuators and the "other victims".
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
"Putting the fun back into funatic"
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Post #9,219
9/14/01 9:33:29 PM
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A horrific picture of what occurs in 2001.
and 'mankind's (forget womankind) impotence to do more than wring hands and honor "national sovereignty".. as the idea is mocked by 36-year old sociopaths.
In that milieu.. it seems that Dubya's main concerns (aside from the impossible terrain) will be ~ to any invasion of Iraq:
How to separate out the (hiding, temporarily fled) perpetrators of this "government" of enrobed Sadists. I rather suppose we shall be seeing this played out anon. Many Afghan-speakers in the US Govt pool?
Awful link. Saved in Doomsday file.
A.
Dear Lord, please protect me from your followers..
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Post #9,248
9/15/01 1:01:45 AM
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Quote for you Ash...
"God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts."
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #9,504
9/17/01 4:07:47 PM
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I understand your pt of view, but am still reacting to it.
Specifically, the language you're using to explain it. To say that the subjugation and mutilation of thousands of innocent people is a "custom" which we do not understand is really insulting and blatantly wrong. What's really to understand? No--to say that behavior is a custom we do not understand is a necessary and vital step toward acting to change it. What I think you mean is this: "to say it's a custom and by that declaration imply we do nothing about it is ... wrong". Surely you are fighting against understanding without action--I am fighting just as hard against action without understanding. Let's meet in the middle. What I'm most worried about is the (I guess rhetorical) question, "what place does Islam have in the modern world?"--as if it had no place (to any "rational" mind). You say you are not referring only to extremists, then describe the religion as if only extremists can be adherents. This is obviously false, since those being victimized in Kashmir are both devoted Muslims (by CHOICE, which they will defend to the death against your "liberation", because they'd rather have their religion than yours), and, at the same time, do not agree women should be killed for failing to wear a veil. You should really check out some of the punishments in the Old Testament, by the way--you might be surprised to see similar unilateral judgments which Judaism has long since stopped performing (when was the last stoning you attended? for example, yet it's written in the Law). I honestly believe that the Muslim nations (the menfolk) have been keenly aware of this progression and see the inevitable "evolution". Me too--and more accept the evolution than I think you are giving them credit for. Certainly many more are accepting the evolution than fighting against it; it's just that accepting it is not done in such graphic ways as rejecting it: guns, bombs, and killer planes. Part of the Muslim world is upset over America forcing American culture down their throats. The rest of the Muslim world is upset over Americans who think they are backward, uncivilized, and less than human because their religion has extremists just like every other religion. That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
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Post #10,689
9/27/01 6:00:47 PM
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When was the last stoning you attended? 1997, IIRC.
It was a ritual thing in a Catholic church. We invent new rituals all the time. This one ended with the famous "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" line.
Almost ended badly - there was an individual present with a more than decent arm who qualified. My 3 year old. Baptized and too young to know right from wrong, therefore technicaly without sin by the local rules. And he would have taken the shot, and hit, if I hadn't swiped his rock.
----
Watch this space: Catch-22 quote will appear once I have the book in front of me.
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Post #10,713
9/27/01 8:53:30 PM
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Stoning is practiced daily in israel
both by the palestinians against the israelis and some Jews against other jews who dress a little skimpy in public. Last pictures I saw was about a month ago.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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Post #10,797
9/28/01 12:19:07 PM
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Examples don't disprove the fact...
...that Judaism, especially as practiced outside Israel itself, has long since abandoned a strict interpretation of the Law. Many, many Muslims have followed and are following the same liberalizing path. Who is to say that Islam should no longer be allowed to exist because certain factions are still fundamental or extreme? Should we not rather expect the liberalization trend to continue, because of the very existence of public outcry against the fundamentalist approach? Reeds in the wind must bend or be broken; why the vehement desire to reach out and break for ourselves the ones that are already bending? The ones which will break will break on their own...
That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
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Post #10,865
9/28/01 10:11:41 PM
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Agreed, but let us strive for consistency
(Though it's a bit of a shock seeing the word liberalized used not as pejorative.. in 'these times' ;-)
The lowest chakra (in one scheme about the location of various energies in the body) is at the fundament. This is among the three classed as, 'animal instinctive' whereas the fourth - is at the 'Heart', going on up..
Irony or prescience?
I'd simply like to see a recognition that, across all groups, nations, organized and disorganized religions: there is a common sub-group, perhaps defined ~ as,
those whose allegiance is solely to (each one's personal interpretation of) God's Will. To put a finer point on 'solely': this personal Mission (?) supersedes any and all social matters whatsoever. Thus, loss of life, property, institutions: is simply of no importance, and may even be a prime goal for that one's 'existence' here.
These are my natural enemy. I'd advocate these becoming formally recognized as such: the enemy of all variants of what we mean by 'civilization', too. Wherever found.
Ashton
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Post #11,014
9/30/01 5:29:11 PM
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Which would be me, if it weren't for:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and the second command is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself."
:)
That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
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Post #11,023
9/30/01 6:21:33 PM
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If I might quote thee,
"Therefore all who will speak up for me before men, I will speak up for
him before my Father who is in the heavens; and whoever denies me
before men, I also will deny him before my Father who is in the
heavens.
Do not suppose that I came to bring peace upon the earth; I did not
come to bring peace but rather a sword. For I came to make a man
hostile against his father and a daughter hostile against her mother
and a bride hostile against her mother-in-law, and his enemies [shall
be] his own household." And as we both are well aware, this is hardly near the most extreme prescriptions for violence to be found - within this tissue of essays by individual men, all stapled together by other men - then re-translated, edited. And left for interpretation by millions, unacquainted with the idea of allegory, and hardly interested in discovering. As with all the other Holy books, none of which came via supernatural meteorite / with glyphs. Of Course! there are passages such as above, also common to every other Western religion. Do you know many capable of applying that general plea for Goodness / ignoring the other exhortations to ~Slay for God's Love? Any? Would you seriously assert that 'spiritual awareness' has anything whatsoever to do with various mens' dogma (we won't get into womens')? I deem that a fair question, if the object is to comprehend homo-sap's relationship to theology as of 2001 (by One calendar). You are clearly capable of other than the play of opposites - though it's a lot more work than merely extirpating volumes of contradictions. Is fundamentalism a tenable mindset for survival next.. or not? (there's a nice Boolean one for dismissal, as it won't just go away). *That* was what my earlier assertion concerned, not more about mens' words on paper. Cheers, Ashton
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Post #11,026
9/30/01 7:15:00 PM
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Quote away
Is fundamentalism a tenable mindset for survival next.. or not? As always, your obfuscated language obscures whatever point you were trying to make. Write in complete sentences if you expect to be answered. What the heck does "survival next" mean? That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
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Post #11,062
10/1/01 3:45:04 AM
10/1/01 3:46:43 AM
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Unclear?
Is fundamentalism a tenable mindset for survival next.. or not?
Seems to have a subject and a predicate, but I suppose the question could be taken trivially: "can this mindset survive" next? (Who would have any idea how to erase a common mindset from the repertoire?)
Can (our idea of) civilization, that of the 'open society', survive relentless anonymous attack from within and without - via all presently known techno means?
But never mind. Such a question can generate only endless ideas of what 'survival' might mean; how many suspects, territories might be erased in escalating horrors and increasingly irrational responses to an invisible opponent. Nobody has any idea of what we might next find ourselves (US) capable. Not even worth speculating.
Happened to catch this evening, a CNN showing of the British journalists's foray into Afg. (before 9/11). Her interview with a Taliban official, after her visit to the 'football stadium' now being used for public executions. His comment,
~ "if [those outside Afg.] wish to see this field used for sports, perhaps they could build us a place for executions. We have our work to do.."
The rest of the hour, via open and at times hidden cameras - demonstrated the destruction of the infrastructure and the repression of most people and of all women. She has a midle-Eastern name ( ___? Shah) and speaks the language.
Forget any idea of 'rationality'. For the Taliban - this is 'survival' enough.
Seems already clear enough - the personal fantasies on all sides about "what a God Wants", those held by a few with the power to order actions: will determine the escalations next. 'We' won't have a vote - 'National Security'.
I smell a new form of homo-sap madness: Religiocide?
Clock has been set back to October, 1962.
No questions,
Ashton
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Post #11,106
10/1/01 12:46:00 PM
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yup saw a neato catoon today
kindly Uncle sam asking hulking flag draped joe sixpack to sign a petition. The big guy goes "dont you know there is a war on? Buncha sedition crap!" and storms away. Uncle sam goes "It was the bill of rights". Sad but gonna be true. Hafta see what Gerry Spence charges for a retainer these days.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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