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New Here's another
NATO wants blood, and they're going to get it.

Afghanistan will be a smoking ruin before Christmas unless there is sudden and very visible cooperation.
--
Peter
Shill For Hire
New Re: This report says Bin Laden *was* CinC of Taliban forces
[link|http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=216037|http://www.vny.com/...m?QID=216037]

If there is truth in it then the Taliban and Bin Laden's org all in together.

Taliban & Afganistan are the base for Bin Laden's global Jihad army currently being trained to cripple US and topple any government they can. The Afghans trying to get out of the country are either trying to escape the fanatics or are 'sleepers' being shipped to other countries they hope to eventually destabilise (like Australia).

It is believed they have been trying to gain control of Indonesia's 250 million muslims & that the west has been trying to destabilise & fragment Indonesia to prevent Bin Laden succeeding. Once Suharto was washed up, west put heat on Indonesia over East Timor but originally gave Suharto the weapons and covert backing needed to grab East Timor back in the 70s (when communisim was the fear du jour).

Again assuming the report has a basis, then Afganistan is a target & the so called house arrest of Bin Laden by Taliban is a ploy.

In fact the last thing the west really wants is to have Bin Laden handed over alive for a trial - this would give the Islamic extremists all the cannon fodder & excuses they need to justify further suicide attacks ostensibly to release the heroic Bin Laden.

Once Bin Laden is gone there are many now equally trained & disparate leaders who are available to step into the Bin Laden role. His org has now become a multi-headed hydra that presents one 'face' at a time & each face that gets cut off fuels the martyr cause but gets replaced with a new 'face'. If we spend all our efforts going after the faces without realising what the monster now is, we will be wasting our time.

This Bin Laden / Taliban / Global Jihad / War on America
thing is now very frightening - they have shown us what they can do - if we are not careful in how we go about killing the beast we may spawn an army of fanatical clones who use each preceeding martydom as further fuel for the next - just look at this same pattern in Palestine.

All very frightening.

Doug Marker

New Re: (hardcopy + easy click to the UPI report)
[link|http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=216037|UPI report re Bin Laden ]

D

Thursday, 30 August 2001 9:58 (ET)


Taliban slammed over bin Laden appointment


MOSCOW, Aug. 30 (UPI) -- Russia's Foreign Ministry on Thursday condemned
the appointment of Saudi terrorism suspect Osama bin Laden as the
commander-in-chief of the armed forces of Afghanistan's ruling Taliban
regime, the official RIA Novosti news agency reported.

Bin Laden's appointment confirmed that a center of international terrorism
is being set up in Taliban-controlled territory, the ministry said in a
statement.

"Pseudo-religious values are being used as a cover to prepare a bridgehead
for expansion of militant extremism and separatism far beyond the region's
borders," added the statement.

This month, Russian media quoted Pakistan's Nation daily as saying that
the Taliban had named bin Laden commander of their troops. Afghanistan's
civil war concerns the Kremlin as hundreds of Russian border guards monitor
the Afghan-Tajik border and a potential spill of violence could plunge the
whole region into chaos.

Moreover, the Taliban's aim to build an orthodox Islamic state has given
rise to many Islamic extremist movements in the former Soviet republics in
Central Asia. In recent years, Islamic insurgents from Afghanistan launched
raids on Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

The Taliban's ongoing clashes with the Northern Alliance movement backing
ousted President Burhanuddin Rabbani -- the leader of the government general
recognized by international organizations -- have alerted Russia and its
partners as arms smuggling, drug trafficking, kidnapping and other crimes
have flourished along the Afghan-Tajik border.

On Thursday, Moscow also condemned the appointment of Juma Namangani as
bin Laden's deputy. Namangani, an ethnic Uzbek, was liked to a number of
raids on Kyrgyzstan's Batken district over the last three years. Namangani
advocates creation of an Islamic state run by a regime similar to the
Taliban's and spreading over Central Asia.

"Incorporation of the international terrorists' leaders into the ruling
structures of the Taliban shows the need to take decisive measures to
collectively counter global challenges that are put forward from the
Taliban-controlled territory," said the statement.
--
Copyright 2001 by United Press International.
All rights reserved.




New Complex situation
There are very close ties between bin Ladin and the Taliban, but from what I have read there is also a certain amount of conflict between the two. The Taliban is very much an Afghanistan Nationalist movement, it really has little interest in international affairs, it just wants to make Afghanistan into their idea of a perfect Muslim country. The movement that bin Ladin leads is an international Muslim movement. It wants to force the west out of the middle east, using terrorism as the way to achieve this.

This Bin Laden / Taliban / Global Jihad / War on America thing is now very frightening - they have shown us what they can do - if we are not careful in how we go about killing the beast we may spawn an army of fanatical clones who use each preceeding martydom as further fuel for the next - just look at this same pattern in Palestine.

Yes, like Israel often is, the US is very likely to find itself in the position of trying to decide which response will result in the least long term damage. If we don't track down the people responsible and punish them, they will think they are succeeding and will do it again. If we do track them down, it's very likely to encourage others to emulate them. Which response will result in the fewest deaths in the long run?

Jay
New Re: Bin Laden begat Taliban & Pakistan props them up
"The Taliban is very much an Afghanistan Nationalist movement, it really has little interest in international affairs, it just wants to make Afghanistan into their idea of a perfect Muslim country. "

From what I have read & observed, esp what happened in Algeria Afghanistan, Chechenya, Pakistan, Indonesia, Bosnia, Albania, Phillipines & Northern China, over the past 10 years, The Taliban is but one of the creations of Bin Laden's organisation & Pakistan are holding Taliban together with support from other militant & fundamentalist organisations in other countries.

Bin Laden was the mastermind who created a global militant Islamic 'army' of logistics supporters, fund raisers & fighters who are sent to different locations to either fight with, train or support embattled Islamic peoples & regimes. His other longer term goal is to attempt to gain control of any already Islamic country where they might be able to implement strictly Islamic law and government. He also wants to destabilise any western country as a means of weakening them while building up Islamic nations. Bin Laden has a long term and global view. To call him a terrorist is merely an opinion. I think there is no doubt that his group fosters, ferments & supports terrorism as one of their weapons, A bit like Ollie North & the Contras etc: did in south America in the 70s & 80s.

The Abu Sayef group in southern Phillipines have been fund raising for years. Things got out of hand there recently when the greedy Phillipine president tried to take a slice of the monies that were being paid over as ransoms. Others resented what he was doing and he was toppled.

In Indonesia, the Bin Laden organisation is funding the ongoing rebellion in the Ache province. We need to remember that Indonesia is the most populated Islamic country in the world. Bin Laden's movement want to establish a fundamentalist Islamic state there. Western powers are doing what they can to prevent this. Islamic militants were being shipped to the Indonesian islands where Christians lived & set about killing them & pushing them out.

In Chechenya, US gave support to Russia to go in a 2nd time to try to wipe out all traces of Islamic control. The Russians needed 2 goes. In the end they have almost succeeded. Bin Laden's org trained many of the fighters sent into battle to fight with the Chechens.

Georgia, Tadjikistan, Azibijan, Uzbekistan etc: are all potential dominoes to be toppled in the region. Then there are the northern Chinese provinces.

Bin Laden's group was formed to boost Islamic prestige and pride. The bloody murderous civil war in Algeria was the starting point coupled with the Afghani fight against Russia. Of course the middle east Palestine/Israel conflict has contributed to the desire to unite. The leaders of Bin Laden's orgs are mostly Algerian & Afghan with a good number of Pakistanis as well. (The moral courage came from the Iranian revolution).

Bin Laden's org has tremendous support & to understand why just imagine living in a world where Christians are the marginalised ones and the Islamic peoples were in control & considered ruthless (historical fact is that Islam has often been more tolerant of Christians than Christians have of Muslims). Anyway, along comes a visionary Christian who has the money charisma & influence to encourage Christians to stand up and not be downtrodden by the dominant powers.
He calls for Christian martyrs who will give their lives to defend the faith and attack the symbols of the oppressing 'enemy' as well as to fight in different parts of the world to defend Christian communities.

Well that is how many Islamic people see the west & US in particular.

Make no mistake about Bin Laden or the role the Taliban & Pakistan are playing in the events unfolding.

It is quite possible the enormity of what is taking place has not yet sunk in among those of us who have not lived in the midst of the historical changes taking place.

America, the west, capitalism are being attacked and the odd part about all this is that we are about to witness old enemies forming close and deep bonds to fend off the assault.

Russia will join with Europe & US & China to form a united front against militant Islam. Some Islamic countries may join but if they do it may also tear them apart. Saudi Arabia is a case in point - remember that Bin Laden comes from there.

Doug Marker











     Some possible future scenarios possibilities .... - (dmarker2) - (6)
         couple of thoughts... - (Simon_Jester) - (5)
             Here's another - (pwhysall) - (4)
                 Re: This report says Bin Laden *was* CinC of Taliban forces - (dmarker2) - (3)
                     Re: (hardcopy + easy click to the UPI report) - (dmarker2)
                     Complex situation - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                         Re: Bin Laden begat Taliban & Pakistan props them up - (dmarker2)

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