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New OT: Box, dunno if I asked you this or not.
But I am curious. Do you, personally, think a person can be anti-Zionist and not be anti-Semetic?

I consider myself to be. In fact, if I were to embrace an organized religion, I would become a Jew (I just can't buy the Christian "you're evil cuz you were born...He's the only one that can save you...etc" view of life/world/everything).

Anyway, my view is that there should not be an Israel and there should also not be a Palestine. I'm not sure what'd you call it, but there ought to be a nation state in which Israelis and Palestineans were equal citizens and had 50/50 share of the politics. (In case of ties, nobody wins, hence they better learn to compromise).

My opposition to the establishment of Israel is that the entire rationale for it is rooted in a set of religious beliefs. This is totally unacceptable to me. As Carlin once observed, "You should never mix Government and religion, man. Either one by itself is enough to really fuck you up."
bcnu,
Mikem

Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
New well let me respond with a question or two
Do you think that there should be one place in the world where only jews get to decide who kills the jews? Currently Israel is the only piece of dirt where the jews can fight for their existence. Considering how the world Universally loves to kill jews everytime they have a social discord, where can they be ruled by themselves for themselves? Your ideal is fine except that since the romans busted the place up, visitors from europe, turkey, iraq, arabia like to swing through and kill a few jews for god and money every decade or so. I think of Israel as a place I know will be a safe haven where the threat is external, where I can get an uzi and defend myself from organized groups trying to kill us off. Even the Soviets which initially welcomed us with open arms turned quickly back to its regularly scheduled progrom. I have worked along side many a man who is convinced America would be better off if each and everyone of "us" were killed immediately. Would I consider you anti-jewish because you are anti Israel? Not nescessarily. Would I trust myself to your ideas? No fucking way, :0
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
\ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
New Lemme take a stab at some answers.
To be sure the suffering of the Jews is unparalled in history (and I hope no people ever suffering anything close). But that suffering may lead some to conclude that Israelis cannot truly be trusted to live peacefully among others (others whom, rightly or wrongly, Israelis suspect have predilictions to murder all Jews).

Your point is an interesting one. You seem to argue that "shouldn't Jews be allowed a piece of turf where they can willingly become members of a reservation, immune from the civilities enjoyed by most of the free world?" Absent civilities in the sense that "it is better to kill them before they kill us."

Now, before you go nuclear on me, I am not in any way suggesting that the violence in that part of the ME is exclusively because of Jews. Note that in my first post I also said that there should not be a Palestine.

Many here have accused you of possessing an "Israel can do no wrong" attitude. I don't think I've ever accused you of that. But I will say that your above post seems to argue that "Because Jews have uniquely suffered, they have a right to the misery they inflict on others." I don't see it that way. I mourn the innocent Israelis killed by Islamic fundamentalists as well. But I also mourn the Palestinean children killed by US supplied machine guns as "just punishment" for throwing rocks.

My BL is that I don't think Zionists or Palestineans can be trusted to have their own nation state. Religious justifications, and yours, notwithstanding.

Just my 2.
bcnu,
Mikem

Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
New I think we can successfully disagree on this :0
Viega was just making a snide comment as it appears to be his way. I have not spent a lot of my life sweating what others think about me.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
\ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
     IDF gets them while they're young. - (a6l6e6x) - (14)
         Re: IDF gets them while they're young. - (rcareaga) - (6)
             Methinks you misread boxley if you believe that. -NT - (Another Scott) - (5)
                 Re: Methinks you misread boxley if you believe that. - (rcareaga) - (2)
                     Consider #4477 - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         Re: Consider #4477 - (rcareaga)
                 Let the jackbooted little stalinist thug have his gloat - (boxley) - (1)
                     huh?? -NT - (rcareaga)
         So you're saying abortion is wrong? - (marlowe) - (6)
             :-) -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                 OT: Box, dunno if I asked you this or not. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                     well let me respond with a question or two - (boxley) - (2)
                         Lemme take a stab at some answers. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                             I think we can successfully disagree on this :0 - (boxley)
             Re: It's a very late abortion! - (a6l6e6x)

Why can't I own Canadians?
43 ms