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New Bull
Sorry, to disagree....
1. There is no way to negotiate with fanatics.
2. You cannot negotiate from a position of weakness.

Restraint, only until it's readily apparent who is the responsible party. Then retaliate. Failure to do so will continue the belief that the U.S. has become a soft, safe target.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
New I agree 100%, but the US State Dept doesn't
After every suicide bombing in Israel the first thing that the State Department says is that Israel should show restraint, this will leadt to a cycle of violence, etc. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If Israel should show restraint then so should the US.
New The perpetrators will be embeded within the innocent.
Attacking them will mean killing innocents at a ratio of better than 1000 to 1. The only rationalization for this is, "You let this happen in your country, so you are guilty too".
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New He was just making a point
To everyone who keeps telling the [Israelis/Pelestinians] to exercise restraint in the wake of the latest wave of violence.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Expand Edited by drewk Sept. 11, 2001, 10:50:07 AM EDT
New Exactly
It is easy for the US to tell Israel to exercise restraint after a restaurant is blown up by a suicide bomber, let us see what the US does now when she has been hit by terrorism.
New Israel should have exercised restraint.
Joe, you're misunderstanding him. But then, you haven't been following IWETHEY very closely the last couple years, have you? So let me explain, please:

BLuke is an immigrant (Jewish American) to Israel, who has spent the last year and a half or so defending Israel's all-out military war on Palestinian civilians. Now he was being sarcastic against those of us who've said that might not be a good thing.

Apparently he doesn't realize ho misplaced that sarcasm is -- partly, in general, at a moment like this -- but, more specifically, since if it *was* the Palestinians wot dunn it, we've just been proven right.

D'ja think if they *hadn't* been driven to utter desperation by a murderous military machine, they'd have even a fraction their own people's support for gruesome shit like this?

I don't.
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything About Slimy Demagogues
New Re: Israel should have exercised restraint.
I've been reading, occassionally posting, since inception, but I never read the political or flames forums, so if that is where he has posted, I've missed it. Thanks for pointing out how easy it is to "go off the deep end" in response to a misinterpeted statement.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
New Blame Israel
It is so easy, everything that goes wrong in the world is the Jews fault. It's an old story, the Jews control the world. This is so pathetic, terrorists (or should I say militants) attack the US and it's Israel's fault.
New Oh, stop being such a pathetic, whiny little prick!
BLuke whinges:
It is so easy, everything that goes wrong in the world is the Jews fault.
If you sordid little wank-stain could only ONCE fucking ADMIT that your precious fucking Chosen People[*] COULD actually, possibly, concievably, be guilty of fucking up every once in an exteremely rare while, then *maybe* your stupid "everybody blames everything wrong in the world on the Jews" whine wouldn't sound quite so fucking stupid.

But since you never do, it does.



[*]: Yup, it *is* ironic, innit?
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New I guess Durban was just a bad dream
With all the problems in the world, Israel should be singled out, give me a break.
New Whine, whine
New I guess Durban was just a bad dream
With all the problems in the world, Israel should be singled out, give me a break.
New Whine, whine, whine
New Whine whine whine whine?
How about you keep adding a whine until your brain explodes?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New well he might be a whiny etc dont encourage him
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
New Oh, please.
The Palestinians brought this conflict on themselves. They had a chance to establish a peaceful relationship in 1948, and they didn't even make an effort. Even the other Muslim nations regarded the Palestinians as trash before they became a political cause celebre. And now they all want those yahoos to have a homeland, so long as it's not in *their* country.

Some people are trouble no matter how nice you are to them. In fact, the nicer you are, there more grief they give you. Restraint simply doesn't apply here. It never did.

Bluke's wrong about a lot of things. But this isn't one of them.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Rather wide brush there, Phil...
Some people feel that way about Roma/Gypsies too....

I don't believe that people should be tarred with such a wide brush.

Whatever the situation in 1948, the reality now is that there are several million people living in the areas occupied by Israel since the 1967 war. They're not going away, and in fact their population is growing quite rapidly. What do you think should be done with them?

Should millions of Palestinians be condemned to squallor for even more years as punishment for the actions of a relative few militants? Do you really think Israel can have a secure existance with millions of poor, angry people on her border and working inside her borders?

I don't believe so.

If restraint doesn't apply here, as you say, then what does? What's the alternative that will give Israel a chance for peace in the next few years?

(You can regard these as rhetorical questions if you'd like, but I'd like to see your answers. Thanks.)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Here's a question for ya.
If they're living in squalor, and they don't like it, why don't they just up and move to someplace better?

It worked for the ancestors of most American citizens. Not all to the same degree, but that only helps prove my point.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Many places won't accept them, as you know.
Lots of places have restrictions on immigration, especially on "economic" refugees. Moving isn't much of an option for them. And why should they have to leave?

And you didn't really answer my questions.

Your second comment is non sequitur, IMO. The issue isn't "overpopulation", its the fact that there's a large group of people who aren't going away. Any solution has to recognize that fact and deal with that fact in a constructive way.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Nobody wanted the Irish in America either.
And still they came. And they're still here.

And incidentally, if nobody, literally nobody, wants them, whose fault is that? They should try to be a bit less bloodthirsty, hmmm?

[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New And then there's the Mexican migrant workers.
Whom the border patrol are laboring mightily to keep out, but without success.

Did you even stop to think about this for two heartbeats before you decided to flame me? You're not just wrong. You're downright silly.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Um, I didn't flame you. No offense intended.
New Okay. My bad.
Addison and jabberwhatever hurling ignorant scorn at me, and you standing a little too close to them. I'll try to aim more carefully in the future.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Of all the unbelieveably stupid questions...
No money, no education, no hope. Every visit one of those 3d world countries?

What are they to do? Jump on a plane, fly to Redmond and get a job as a Microsoft certified software engineer?

So, how do they "up and move"?

Where to?

And how do they support themselves once they make that move?

And where do they get the education necessary to improve their "quality of life"?
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
New Of all the unbelievably stupid objections.
Plenty of immigrants to America had these very same problems. They managed. To get here and stay here, that is. No excuses.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Here's another one.
If they have an overpopulation problem, why don't they either use rubbers or just cut down on the screwing a bit? Both these things work for the Protestants, so what's the excuse?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New yeah right, another stupid question.
Birth control of any type costs money. I was in one of these 3d world country villages a couple of years ago. At age 13 the girls were forced out of the homes, so they had to find a husband to take care of them. And husbands wanted sex. I saw girls my daughters' age carrying babies.

The boys were given the opportunity for advanced (HS) education, IF the parents could come up with the tuition. $100/YEAR. However, since that was the annual income, only the "upper class" could attend school.

So how do they pay for birth control, or prevent "screwing"?
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
New Another stupid objection.
Condoms are cheap. And abstinence is free.

And if they'd just stop breeding like bacteria, they'd wouldn't be so poor to begin with. Duh.

If this is the best you can do, why do you even bother?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Unbelieveable
It's obvious you've never lived, nor seen this type of poverty.

I cannot discuss with you, what you cannot comprehend.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
New What does pertain
Short term: containment and control.
Long term: forced conversion to ideas of decency and common sense.

Your rights to self determination and cultural identity end where my nose begins.

[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Marlowe for Benevolent (?) Despot!
You make me laugh sometimes, "Phil". :-)

Um, how do you intend to impose your views on "decency and common sense" with respect to these issues on the other 6 B folks who share the planet with us? Hint: it's not late-1945 any more...

And you're still not answering my questions... :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Most of the those six billion aren't a problem.
It's a few yahoo groups, such as the Palestinians, that are the issue. And I've never suggested otherwise.

And shame on you for resorting to sarcasm and misrepresentation, instead of admitting I've got a valid point which you can't answer directly.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
     Plane crashes into World Trade Center - (Silverlock) - (78)
         Make that TWO planes crashes into World Trade Center - (jbrabeck)
         Just posted that in Open - (drewk) - (1)
             Wife just called - (drewk)
         Explosion reported at Pentagon - (Silverlock) - (1)
             MSNBC -- bomb or plane... -NT - (jbrabeck)
         Sears Tower evacuated - (Silverlock)
         WTC building has collasped ... MSNBC -NT - (jbrabeck)
         pray for btilly and everyone else of course. -NT - (boxley)
         Re: Commercial Plane crashes into Pentagon too? - (brettj)
         Explosion at Capitol Building too... - (jake123)
         I presume this means the U.S. is at war. - (Andrew Grygus) - (54)
             I agree, but with whom? - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                 Could be anyone at this point. - (Andrew Grygus)
             The US should exercise restraint - (bluke) - (32)
                 Bull - (jbrabeck) - (31)
                     I agree 100%, but the US State Dept doesn't - (bluke)
                     The perpetrators will be embeded within the innocent. - (Andrew Grygus)
                     He was just making a point - (drewk) - (1)
                         Exactly - (bluke)
                     Israel should have exercised restraint. - (CRConrad) - (26)
                         Re: Israel should have exercised restraint. - (jbrabeck)
                         Blame Israel - (bluke) - (7)
                             Oh, stop being such a pathetic, whiny little prick! - (CRConrad) - (6)
                                 I guess Durban was just a bad dream - (bluke) - (1)
                                     Whine, whine -NT - (CRConrad)
                                 I guess Durban was just a bad dream - (bluke) - (2)
                                     Whine, whine, whine -NT - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                         Whine whine whine whine? - (marlowe)
                                 well he might be a whiny etc dont encourage him -NT - (boxley)
                         Oh, please. - (marlowe) - (16)
                             Rather wide brush there, Phil... - (Another Scott) - (15)
                                 Here's a question for ya. - (marlowe) - (7)
                                     Many places won't accept them, as you know. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                         Nobody wanted the Irish in America either. - (marlowe) - (3)
                                             And then there's the Mexican migrant workers. - (marlowe) - (2)
                                                 Um, I didn't flame you. No offense intended. -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                     Okay. My bad. - (marlowe)
                                     Of all the unbelieveably stupid questions... - (jbrabeck) - (1)
                                         Of all the unbelievably stupid objections. - (marlowe)
                                 Here's another one. - (marlowe) - (3)
                                     yeah right, another stupid question. - (jbrabeck) - (2)
                                         Another stupid objection. - (marlowe) - (1)
                                             Unbelieveable - (jbrabeck)
                                 What does pertain - (marlowe) - (2)
                                     Marlowe for Benevolent (?) Despot! - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                         Most of the those six billion aren't a problem. - (marlowe)
             get the right heads and place them on sticks - (boxley) - (3)
                 lets also not assume it is Arab related either. Other folks - (boxley) - (1)
                     Definitely must agree - (bconnors)
                 Kill people????? - (bluke)
             Andrew, think bigger... - (jb4)
             Let's dust off the Nukes - (SpiceWare) - (13)
                 How do you use nukes if it's the world trade radicals? -NT - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                     Once we find out who's behind it - (SpiceWare)
                 Cooler heads are needed now, Darryl - (jb4) - (10)
                     Cycle of violence - (bluke) - (8)
                         I don't agree with that advice either. - (SpiceWare) - (7)
                             All I ask ... - (bluke) - (6)
                                 Israel is not innocent either. - (Andrew Grygus) - (5)
                                     Absolutely not - (bluke) - (1)
                                         I do not favor killing those civilians . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                     Some relevent quotes - (drewk) - (2)
                                         Re: Some relevent quotes - (Fearless Freep) - (1)
                                             No, it's not - (drewk)
                     Hence "dust off" instead of "Launch" -NT - (SpiceWare)
         My thoughts are with all you folks - (Meerkat) - (2)
             Thanks. - (brettj)
             Mine too. - (static)
         Try www.chicagotribune.com - (jb4) - (1)
             www.chron.com also working - (SpiceWare)
         We'll be hearing real soon how much better off . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (7)
             Great! - (jb4)
             Yes, we'll hear it.... - (jbrabeck) - (5)
                 Not only that... - (inthane-chan)
                 Yes... - (Fearless Freep) - (3)
                     Nope - (jbrabeck) - (2)
                         Well... - (Fearless Freep) - (1)
                             I agree. Too late to prevent when plane airborne! -NT - (jbrabeck)

Hatten ar din, hatten ar din. Hatten ar din, hatt baby!
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