Post #80,088
2/7/03 10:10:46 AM
|
A good point and all,
but it doesn't acknowledge the pervasive view in IT that anyone who is an end-user is an idiot until proven otherwise.
As someone who has never worked in IT, but associated with those who do quite frequently, I can say that in my personal experience this attitude has been the norm. Now, my own work experience is hardly a good test sample of the working world at large, but the popularity of User Friendly (which I like) and BOFH (which I also like) and the pervasive "cup holder" jokes don't show me much of an alternate cultural mindset.
There is some value in the Washignton Post article this guy is ranting about.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #80,300
2/8/03 4:15:25 AM
|
Re: A good point and all,
but it doesn't acknowledge the pervasive view in IT that anyone who is an end-user is an idiot until proven otherwise. That's because it's true often enough for the exceptions to be statistical noise.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
|
Post #80,347
2/8/03 6:23:05 PM
|
*sigh*
It is, in fact, not even *remotely* true.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #80,352
2/8/03 6:41:04 PM
|
Depends on the company, in my experience.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
|
Post #80,355
2/8/03 7:18:55 PM
|
Double *sigh*
Well, yes, most are. In terms of what they expect out of
their systems, joined with their boss' expectations, they
want it to do it all. With no effort. Easily. Intuitively,
whatever that is.
They have been trained to expect system crashes which in turn
excuses their own mistakes, allowing them to blame everything
on the IT guy.
They are effectively idiots in the manner which they expect
things to work. Just like I am an idiot in accounting,
mechanical engineering, organizational management, or
any of thousands of diciplines which I have no aptitude
or experience. I just know better than to try to allow that
lack of knowledge interfere with my ability make a living.
The problem here is that they are expected to be productive
with crappy tools, and they buy into it. Their boss tasks
them with the usage. They fail, becuase there is really
almost no chance of success. You have just joined people
who no concept of bits and bytes, being manipulated by both
M$ and their internal PHBs, who are told this stuff is
easy.
They then get frustrated, they point and click around, and
run out of time. They are pissed, have been lied to, have
been forced into a position they don't understand, AND
THEN THEY CALL FOR TECH SUPPORT.
They are angry sheeple. They feel that their particular
problem is the IT department's fault. No matter what.
And they take it out on the guy answering the phone.
No matter how smart, educated, mature the user might be,
at that point they are a BLITHERING IDIOT.
If most of the exposure that the general IT population gets
to the users is that magical moment, what would you expect
their opinion to be?
|
Post #80,381
2/9/03 2:22:51 AM
|
Re: *sigh*
I take it you've never worked in an IT department?
I could anecdote you to death with how normal, seemingly intelligent people, who can drive a car, feed themselves, do their taxes, program their VCR and raise children successfully, turn into complete and utter vegetables when presented with a dialogue box and two choices - [OK] and [CANCEL].
But I won't. Instead, I will refer you to Barry's post - which has deep resonance for me :-)
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
|
Post #80,399
2/9/03 12:40:42 PM
|
Fear of the computer
somehow makes them not want to learn how it works or what to do when an error or dialog box pops up. But that is not the only problem an IT department has with its coworkers in other departments, oh no, there are some that know just a little bit, enough to be dangerious.
Take for example someone who messes with everything on the computer and changes settings and deletes files. I once had someone, back in 1994, who ran every EXE and COM program in his C:\\DOS\\ directory because he was bored. Once he got to FDISK, he erased his hard drive. The dialog prompt said "Warning, this will erase your hard drive, are you sure? (Y/N)" and he hit Yes anyway. Then he wanted me to get all of his files back, oh yeah, he didn't do a backup of his hard drive like he was supposed to. He had the tape drive, just was too lazy to run the backup program before he left from work, etc. He also didn't think of storing his files on the network drive just in case his hard drive went south. Needless to say his boss fired him for that and didn't blame the IT department for it, but after that we had to delete the FDISK program and use it from a floppy disk when we needed it.
Another guys, he booted into DOS mode and used XTree Gold or some DOS utility to take a look at his Windows 95 files. He found SYSTEM.DAT, SYSTEM.DA0, USER.DAT, and USER.DA0 and then deleted them because each one of them took up a large amount of hard drive space. Then after he rebooted into Windows 95, it complained that his registry was missing or invalid. Lucky for us that he had backed up his hard drive, so we ran the DOS version of his tape backup program and pulled out SYSTEM.DAT and USER.DAT to restore it.
Then there are those who are smart enough to figure out a way around group policies by deleting the files that is used for group policies, and then they can get into Control Panel and other areas and mess things up.
NT 4.0 is not that secure, one way to get to a DOS prompt is to use the IE Browser and then hit "View" and then "Source" to get Notepad up. If you can get to Notepad, then you can make a new document and put into it:
CMD.EXE
Then save it into your Program Groups as something like Jitter.bat and then it will have an icon for it. Then you just click on that icon, and it pops up a DOS prompt that you can type almost anything in and get around NT 4.0 security that prohibits the running of some programs by hiding them, etc. In fact once you've done this, you can run CMD.EXE via the scheduler and it will have Admin access! I've seen so many people do that and then mess up the system. They are smart enough to figure that kind of stuff out, yet they don't know that changing system settings can hose up their workstation. So they change them to the wrong settings.
[link|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey|
New and improved, Chicken Delvits!]
|
Post #80,429
2/9/03 2:39:35 PM
|
babble
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
|
Post #80,582
2/10/03 10:46:20 AM
|
What the hell?
He's staying on topic, God damn it! This is not babble. May not be the learned discourse you've come to expect from the distinguished scholars around here (right, CRC?), but this is no babble.
--
We have only 2 things to worry about: That
things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
|
Post #80,604
2/10/03 12:21:52 PM
|
Sorry, Professor Belousov, but if he's staying on topic...
...he sure is doing it in a very babbly kind of way.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
|
Post #80,608
2/10/03 12:42:33 PM
|
Two points on-topic, one tangential illustration
1. That many people are intimidated into NOT learning how to use a computer, and
2. IT's problem is not just the people who don't know what they are doing, but the people who know just enough to really screw things up.
He then provided an example for #2.
THEN he went off topic, a bit, by delving into NT end-user hacking tips, but it was tangentially related to #2.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #80,609
2/10/03 12:46:05 PM
|
You said it in 2 lines; he positively BURIED it in babble.
|
Post #80,614
2/10/03 12:53:05 PM
|
That's because I'm a technical writer
and a damn good one to boot.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #80,625
2/10/03 1:37:05 PM
|
Is that...
..."Speaking Technically, a Damn good one!"?
/me ducking and running
b4k4^2
| [link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//|ED'S GHOST SPEAKS!] | | [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|Writing on wall, Microsoft to develop apps for Linux by 2004] | Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberstrategy-draft.html|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at safety checkpoints. |
|
Post #80,626
2/10/03 1:38:33 PM
|
hehe
if you look at it as:
(and a damn good) (one to boot)
it might explain why I was unemployed for over a year. :)
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #80,627
2/10/03 1:40:57 PM
|
Ahh, yes Confuscious ask: Does that leather taste good?
That was good Chris...
/me wiping Diet Mountain Dew off the Screen!
b4k4^2
| [link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//|ED'S GHOST SPEAKS!] | | [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|Writing on wall, Microsoft to develop apps for Linux by 2004] | Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberstrategy-draft.html|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at safety checkpoints. |
|
Post #80,672
2/10/03 4:10:22 PM
|
Indeed, Dr. Conrad -
he's staying on topic. In his own kind of way. Just like His Excelence Dr. Brown or His Learned Lucidity Sir Oxley often do. And we both are off topic. What a shame.
--
We have only 2 things to worry about: That
things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
|
Post #80,634
2/10/03 2:14:50 PM
|
He sort of did stay on topic...
But given the volume that he posts, and the fraction that actually is relevant, I wouldn't have noticed.
If he, say, limited himself to 3 posts per day and deliberately avoided whining, it would make a huge difference. But as it stands I just skip anything that he posts and wishes that Scott had a twit filter for me to use.
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
|
Post #80,756
2/10/03 7:43:39 PM
|
As I said before
they are picking on me. No other words are needed here.
[link|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey|
New and improved, Chicken Delvits!]
|
Post #80,780
2/10/03 9:12:06 PM
|
Ignore it.
--
We have only 2 things to worry about: That
things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
|
Post #80,784
2/10/03 9:33:45 PM
|
Re: What the hell?
It's offical, Peter's a dick.
-drl
|
Post #80,788
2/10/03 9:42:08 PM
|
OT didya email the russian broad?
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #80,613
2/10/03 12:52:29 PM
|
I have been the *bane* of IT departments
Although I usually compensate for it by being an enthusiastic and effective beta tester for whatever new doodad or geegaw they're mucking about with at the time.
My objection to the whole "End Users are Stupid" idea has, I guess, more to do with the fact that I remember trying to figure out this computer stuff ON MY OWN for a long time before running into other geeks who could help fill in the gaps of ignorance... and dammit, I asked the most ridiculous questions at the beginning, and it wasn't because I was a fucking moron.
It was because I didn't know which questions were useful and which ones weren't, and I had no point of reference to start with.
I remember trying to upgrade my first PC, going to the CompUSA and asking any question that popped into my head... because I didn't even know there were BOOKS available about upgrading your PC. And I remember the looks on the faces of the tech guys as they answered my questions as dismissively as they could manage...
This was the first kernel of the sum of my experiences that eventually turned into Help Desk. Trying to get information from people who knew how to use computers was like PULLING TEETH because I knew so little, and the questions I asked them were so far below where they were, that it ANNOYED them to have to answer them.
The difference between me and the average person at work is that I put a great deal of my FREE TIME into learning what little I know about computers. FREE TIME -- that's time I don't get paid for... and that's only because it fits in with what I *do* in my free time.
And now that I'm *finally* doing what I want to do with computers, I can look back and say that it took me more than TEN YEARS to get there. What the hell kind of time sink is that?
At any rate, not that I can't sympathise with the innate frustration of people who work in IT when it comes to trying to communicate a concept to someone who isn't at the level where they can UNDERSTAND said concept... I just remember what it was like to be so utterly without a reference point that all I could was flail away blindly.
And honestly, if it didn't LOOK like a cupholder, people would stop putting their drinks on it. I don't understand why so many people in IT suffer from such severe functional fixedness. :)
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #80,685
2/10/03 4:52:12 PM
|
You hit all the referents, but don't draw the conclusion
the questions I asked them were so far below where they were, that it ANNOYED them to have to answer them...innate frustration of people who work in IT when it comes to trying to communicate a concept to someone who isn't at the level where they can UNDERSTAND said concept...so many people in IT suffer from such severe functional fixedness... So, what is your conclusion anyway? Sounds to me like, "I understand it, but I can't understand it." Okay, so you ostensibly started this post because you want to correct the "End Users Are Stupid" concept...then went on to document exactly why it existed. In my experience, if you want to correct the EUAS syndrome, you need to have a clear understanding between the parties involved that 1) some things are better left commanded than explained, and 2) don't take it personally when this happens to you. Unfortunately for sharp techies, they're usually on the sending end of this conversation, and get put in a bad light; equally unfortunately, they are on the sending end so often they have no ability to be on the receiving end. But IMO you don't correct the problem by changing #1--this leads to Dilbertian-scale operational collapse; instead you educate people (both techies and end-users) on #2. Sure, you can spend vast amounts of money, time and labor on helping salve the harsh realities of command-style communication, but it only goes so far before the return diminishes rapidly.
Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
|
Post #80,698
2/10/03 5:22:00 PM
|
I understand the frustration... not the conclusion
The conclusion being, "these end users are a pack of idiots."
There is a difference between feeling frustration because your level of understanding is much higher than the people who are asking you for information, and reaching the conclusion that therefore, the people asking you for information have the collective brainpower of charred toast. One does not follow the other, the frustration involved has nothing to do with the fact that the end users are STUPID, it has to do with them not being where the the IT people are in terms of experience.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #80,707
2/10/03 5:43:32 PM
|
well I have been accused of when asked the time
I explain how to build a sundial. What I always ask (if I have time) probing questions to establish what they do know and always preface with If you know this please interupt and I will move on.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #80,737
2/10/03 6:25:09 PM
|
Ah, I get it now.
And mostly agree. I would simply add the caveat that it's often unintentional from the perspective of the techie; the user perceives they're being talked down to and treated like a child.
User: It's broken in this way.
Tech: Fix it like this.
User: Why?
Tech: That would take hours to explain*.
User: So you think I'm stupid?
It's even worse when the User hangs up (or walks away, etc) without saying the last line, just assuming it. Which is why I said what I did about education. The techs need to understand they're being perceived this way, and the users need to know it's par for the course and not personal. Some techs, unfortunately, are so tired of addressing this issue they've simply turned up their filtering system a notch or two to actively discourage addressing it. The easy way to do this is: yes, you are stupid, go away and stop bothering me. Then most businesses decide to put non-techs in between the two groups, and we approach Helldesk.
* Obviously, there are *many* variations on this answer.
Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
|
Post #80,782
2/10/03 9:27:09 PM
|
I've done help desk for years.
The only way to stay sane is to think of yourself as a teacher of the uninitiated. And there are always more uniniiated. So you always get to be the teacher.
How many lives per gallon?
--Sign outside of various churches
|
Post #80,759
2/10/03 7:54:34 PM
2/10/03 7:55:31 PM
|
May I say this old chap
It isn't that end users are stupid, we tend to think quite the opposite. Without our beloved coworkers in other departments the company would not make money; as it were, IT usually does not generate income the other departments do.
So it is our jobs to make sure that you have working equipment to generate that income. It is not our jobs to be babysitters or be treated like inhuman trolls to the other departments.
The thing I am talking about here is respect, in my ten plus years of working in IT departments I have yet to see but a few examples of respect. I recall when I took a job in 1993 in a Fortune 500 IT department, it was a mess and got tons of complaints to the Programming Manager who was my supervisor. In one year, in 1994, I had done such a good job that the complaints stopped and people stopped calling in. People are quick to complain, and phone call those complaints in, but when you do a "bang-up" job nobody calls in and says "Hey that Norman guy was great, he took 15 minutes to fix my computer problem and that guy you hired before him took hours and days and then quit on me." they just do their job and don't say a word. So management never knows if we are doing good job or not.
Now for the mentally challeneged I will review the points that I made in my post:
#1 We don't think that end users are stupid.
#2 End users in other departments are the ones that generate income.
#3 We keep your computer running so you can get your jobs done.
#4 There is a lack of respect from the other departments towards the IT department.
#5 I gave an example of how I fixed things in an IT department, yet did not get any accolades or respect for it.
#6 People only give feedback to IT managers when things mess up, not when things are fixed and working better.
[link|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey|
New and improved, Chicken Delvits!]
Edited by orion
Feb. 10, 2003, 07:55:31 PM EST
|
Post #80,768
2/10/03 8:06:11 PM
|
Nice post. Thanks!
Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
|
Post #80,812
2/10/03 11:02:39 PM
|
Well said.
And it sounds as if a copy of Item 4 could be sent profitably - to the ossifers of a number of companies, given so many other similar reports. It's brief enough that anyone could understand the Issue. A few might even act on the knowledge.
Hey - that Norman brain seems to work OK just now: Ghost today's setup.
Ashton
|
Post #80,836
2/11/03 12:49:26 AM
|
Not that easy
I just happened to have a good day today for some reason. A momment of cl;arity. Let's hope that it lasts.
[link|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey|
New and improved, Chicken Delvits!]
|
Post #80,763
2/10/03 8:03:57 PM
|
Further thoughts on the topic
Being an IT staffer I don't know much about Accounting or Marketing or Business Administration, that is the job of the other departments. Being an IT staffer, it is my job to know how a computer works and how to fix it or write programs for it, not other departments. I don't go over to Accounting and try to balance the books, for example.
Why is it that end users feel that they need to learn how to "Tweak" their computers? Then they have a feeling that we thing they are stupid because they don't know as much as we do? We went to school, had training, and learned by experience how computers work. Our coworkers in other departments cannot learn in a few days, the extend of computer knowledge that we IT staffers have. You are more than welcome to try and learn, we usually have "Trainers" for that, or a Help Desk that can walk you though the problem and if you take good notes you might learn how to fix that problem should it ever happen again. Again I say that we are not thinking the other coworkers are stupid, just that they are not always at the same level of computer savvy as we IT staffers are.
The points I made for the mentally challenged:
#1 IT staffers are not Accountants, Marketers, or Business Administrators. We only know how to do our jobs, not the jobs of other departments. So why try to learn how to do our job?
#2 End Users feel the need to learn how to "tweak" their computers, but they do not understand that this knowledge cannot be learned in a few days, we IT staffers took years to learn it, for example.
#3 Again we do not think that end users, our coworkers in other departments, are stupid. They just do not have the level of computer knoweldge that we IT staffers have, mostly.
#4 If you wish to learn, take some courses, or contact a "Trainer", you cannot just blindly ask a random IT staffer to teach you everything he/she knows. You can even take notes with the Help Desk to learn more about how to fix problems.
[link|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey|
New and improved, Chicken Delvits!]
|
Post #80,772
2/10/03 8:18:46 PM
|
Big Misconception
Being an IT staffer I don't know much about Accounting or Marketing or Business Administration, that is the job of the other departments. Being an IT staffer, it is my job to know how a computer works and how to fix it or write programs for it, not other departments. I don't go over to Accounting and try to balance the books, for example If you dont know how to balance the books how can you write an accounting program? How can you design a CRM if you know nothing about marketing? Business administration is a prime funtion of IT. We administrate the business electronically. This is the biggest problem IT faces, if you cannot understand the business you are in your programs will never be satisfactory, the users will see you (rightly) as a hinderence and the users will attempt to control their PC's BECAUSE you are not responsive, not in spite of you but because you dont know or want to know how the business is rum. It was this attitude of the Frame folks that caused the PC revolution and it is your attitude which will drive the nextgen into a new way of using machines for efficiency. I will be with them because I know business from top to bottom in all the major Industries. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #80,837
2/11/03 12:57:20 AM
|
But we are not taught that in school
it is not part of having an IT Degree. Just light accounting and business classes. Usually meeting with the end users who understand these things can work out a decent program that can do what they want. My point is that your average IT staffer isn't trained in the way a business works any more than your average coworker from another department is trained how to write computer programs. It is a matter of teamwork to get it done between the two groups.
For example, I learned a bit how a lawfirm does stuff by meeting with people from other departments and getting more info on what the program should do and the way to do it. Before I got hired, I had no idea how a lawfirm runs, or what is expected out of the programs. Sometimes there is a communication breakdown, where they say one thing, but meant another.
But yes to write certain programs you must have computer knowledge plus knowledge in that other area to be very effective. Your average recent college graduate isn't going to have that sort of knowledge. Someone working in that area for a few years would be better suited for the job.
Uh, do I still need to list my points after I make my statements, or can you guys figure them out by now?
[link|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey|
New and improved, Chicken Delvits!]
|
Post #80,864
2/11/03 8:15:17 AM
|
Sorry, I know them and I didnt go to school
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #80,882
2/11/03 9:48:57 AM
|
Helpdesk people aren't trained
to understand the company business. Internal IT developers are (or should be) trained to _gather_requirements_. When requirement gathering is done, a developer should know enough about the business to improve it with computers. And, above all, the developer has to understand the limits of his/her knowlege - where to stop and ask more questions.
--
We have only 2 things to worry about: That
things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
|
Post #80,904
2/11/03 10:54:54 AM
|
I thought your points were clear enough this time
Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
|
Post #80,357
2/8/03 7:25:30 PM
|
If it will make you feel better
"but it doesn't acknowledge the pervasive view in IT that anyone who is an end-user is an idiot until proven otherwise." I have seen entire floors of IT people who were idiots with one or 2 people that knew their stuff. An allegory I like to use is "what you are asking is like sitting in your car and screaming that it is broken because it wont take you downtown. First you have to put the key in the ignition, engage gears and steer. Let me get you someone to teach you to drive your computer."
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
