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New No free will in Islam?
[link|http://www.donaldsensing.com/2003_01_01_archive.html#90253963|Allah's little robots]

Excerpt:

Bin Laden's sort of self-justifying extremism is not the mainstream of Islam, but neither is it as far removed as we might imagine. Fatalism is a characteristic of Islam. There is no human freedom. Human liberty, especially as Americans think of it, is literally a foreign concept to Islam, especially Arab Islam.

We say that the defining idea of American liberty is "self evident:" Human beings "are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." This claim has no natural fit with Islam. The idea that humans, created by the power of Allah, could inherently possess unalienable rights of their own, which no authority may remove, would require Islam to surrender the idea that Allah enjoys meticulous control over all affairs of nature and humankind. But this notion is lethally dangerous to the defining idea of Islam itself: that Allah has all the power.

Liberty as we conceive it is at the heart of the conflict. For Muslims, the most desirable state of human society is not one that is free, in the Western sense, but one that is submissive to Allah, according to the dictates of Quran. This state of society is dar al Islam, the world of peace. Anything else is the "world of war." Hence, Islam does not use terms such as free or unfree to refer to nations, but at war with Allah or at peace (through submission) to Allah. And because of the deterministic model of Allah, any form of political repression conducted under Islam's banner is seen as Allah's will. Think Saudi Arabia, Iran and the Taliban.

Islamic countries can practice democracy. Turkey is usually offered as a prime example. Because Iraq has been mostly secularized for many decades, Islam does not present a barrier to democracy there as it would in some other Arab countries. Rooting democracy in Iraq won't be easy, but it's main barrier will probably be tribalism rather than religion. Iran might go democratic fairly easily one day, too, because the people there have pretty much had their fill of Islamic absolutism. The rest of the Arab countries will present difficult challenges.
"Going to a march organized by Communists doesn't make you a Communist, any more than going to a march organized by Nazis makes you a Nazi." - Glenn Reynolds
The trouble with the French is they have no word for "roulons."
CHICKENHAWK! Scourge of clucking hens everywhere!
Victory is the answer. There are no alternatives.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
New So you have never heard Billy Graham?
"Submit yourself to Jesus Christ!"

[link|http://www.billygraham.org/qna/qna.asp?i=495|James 4:7] says: "Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

Are you living a sheltered life or just fomenting hate?
Alex

"No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session."\t-- Mark Twain
New Deep thoughts - "Free Willy" in Arabic
-drl
New American liberty is, well,
American, not Christian.

Comparing apples with torts.

If the conflict is between America and Islam, we will certainly lose. Check the numbers.

If the conflict is between Christianity and Islam, look up Crusade. Hint: losing venture, except that at that point the Arabs were holding our civilization for us while we went through what they are going through now, and we stole it back.Good for us, but I'm pretty sure we could have gotten that by asking politely. Otherwise, with the exception of a few early victories, it was a complete disaster for our side. And not much fun for the other.


----
Whatever
New Ever heard of Calvinism?
Not much free will there, either.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
New dar al Islam isn't terrifically hard a concept, in context.
It's common to all other Eastern approaches and the similarities converge - the more esoteric the level (in whatever 'religion').

Peace / Unity / Oneness [sat chit ananda or ~ being knowledge bliss] is the 'state of grace' or Eden or whatever - wherein the individual recognizes the Unity (and in a largest sense: that there is no actual 'individual' at all).

The 'eating of the apple', in Christianity signifies acquiring, "the knowledge of Good and Evil" == creates the illusion of Duality, symbolized as The Fall. The Fall is: loss of the perception of The Unity.

Corollary - the maya, the non-Xian term: signifies "life within that [this!] illusion of duality, this "world of opposites", after losing Realization of ~ 'what One actually Is'".

Yet none-of-the above - would, I believe describe the usual religion / religiosity of the mass of Believers. Still, this message appears in all the major Corporate Religions\ufffd, if one delves far enough from the litanies.

Higher acolytes are supposed to have [re-]achieved a measure of the realization; that is at least, ever the aim. (Anyone can claim / no one can 'tell' about 'another') Well, there may be indications.. but not to any casual observer.

So what? Simply: most of the generalities which feed the endless God-Wars completely ignore this common metaphysical basis and dwell upon the rituals and the dumbed-down rote recitations. Metaphor is taken for historicity or literally, etc. Gauss in action. World of Duality in action.

Means nothing particularly re Islam or Christianity, but illustrates what the greater mass of folks are willing to settle for. The Conflict, always fought at these pedestrian scales, is / was thus, simply bogus. Such is how 'we' appear to be, in our lengthy adolescence.

(It follows too that, the Wars for Ego or Power - are at even lower scales of awareness. But many folks know that.) Pity about the loss of the Library at Alexandria. More so: Hypatia herself?



IMhO,

Ashton
     No free will in Islam? - (marlowe) - (5)
         So you have never heard Billy Graham? - (a6l6e6x)
         Deep thoughts - "Free Willy" in Arabic -NT - (deSitter)
         American liberty is, well, - (mhuber)
         Ever heard of Calvinism? - (cwbrenn)
         dar al Islam isn't terrifically hard a concept, in context. - (Ashton)

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