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New Re: You mean need
Look, if you can't spot CVS's problems in realistic full usage

Hmmmm. Does this need to be more than 100 developers? Because thats the largest group where I've used it. Can't say there are no merge problems. Can't say that with any tool. You do have to be sensible about who works on what and there are more considerations to this than just "merging" (typically the least of my worries on a well designed system). But thats true with any project.

Even when envy is your code management system (which to my mind remains nirvana wrt to code management - but it only works because it intimately understands what its managing - which is Smalltalk code). Sadly, IBM purchased envy (the company) and promptly stopped supporting it.

What matters, to my way of thinking, is the track record.

When Apache or mozilla moves to it I'll give it another look. One toy example of use by the developers does not a successful demo make. They know how to avoid the bugs. They put them there.

This is typical software lifecycle. Never count on developers to test their own code. I guess I can't expect a sysadmin to understand software development lifecycle though.






I think that it's extraordinarily important that we in computer science keep fun in computing. When it started out, it was an awful lot of fun. Of course, the paying customer got shafted every now and then, and after a while we began to take their complaints seriously. We began to feel as if we really were responsible for the successful, error-free perfect use of these machines. I don't think we are. I think we're responsible for stretching them, setting them off in new directions, and keeping fun in the house. I hope the field of computer science never loses its sense of fun. Above all, I hope we don't become missionaries. Don't feel as if you're Bible salesmen. The world has too many of those already. What you know about computing other people will learn. Don't feel as if the key to successful computing is only in your hands. What's in your hands, I think and hope, is intelligence: the ability to see the machine as more than when you were first led up to it, that you can make it more.

--Alan Perlis
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 12:46:47 PM EDT
New Re: You mean need
Todd wrote:

Hmmmm. Does this need to be more than 100 developers?

I really don't give a damn, Todd. If you don't understand CVS's problems, kindly seek education elsewhere.

When Apache or mozilla moves to it I'll give it another look.

I really don't give a damn what you use, Todd, and you can bloody well do your own product-usage research.

By the way, kid: Suddenly lost interest in that chozzeroi about your having "been at this longer than I have"?

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
New ObMyDickIsBiggerThanYours
-YendorMike

[link|http://www.hope-ride.org/|http://www.hope-ride.org/]
New Re: ObMyDickIsBiggerThanYours
Mike wrote:

ObMyDickIsBiggerThanYours

What a rather assinine thing to say.

I didn't say it was a good thing to be an old fogie, or any kind of special distinction, but rather was calling Todd's bluff on, and pointing out the irony of, his flamboyantly ignorant assertion of "Don't patronize me sonny - I've been at this longer than you have." Yeah, right.

I've gotten tired of that kind of crud coming from an obviously young and rather ill-informed MacOS partisan. His trying to say I'm a newcomer when I witnessed the public debut of his favourite toy computer's great-great-grandfather -- and had been programming computers for eight years even before that (most likely well before he was born) -- was just about one irony too many.

I tried to be polite when this fellow tried to bull**** his way around proprietary licensing issues by grandiloquently proclaiming that "all software is proprietary" merely because it's subject to copyright ownership. I tried to be civil when he repeatedly bothered me to tell him what manpage to consult for tar/cpio's interaction with filesystem semantics (as if manpages had ever been tutorials), and refusing to go away when I said his education simply wasn't my problem.

And now, he's not only buttonholing me to tell me that the Subversion SCM doesn't meet his needs, as if I should care, but topping that with his comedy act about "being at this longer than I have"? Gimme a break!

I don't know how you would react to having such nonsense thrust at you continually, Mike, but you may certainly have my share.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Expand Edited by rickmoen Jan. 24, 2003, 07:02:00 AM EST
New What would I do?
I don't know how you would react to having such nonsense thrust at you continually, Mike, but you may certainly have my share.
Read [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=74615|this post], and you will see that, generally, when things start turning into a flame-fest, or name-calling, etc...I generally just tune it out. So...that's how I react to such nonsense. I treat it as exactly what it is. Nonsense.

It is, after all, just a website. Just a threaded discussion with a bunch of people -- some of whom I've met, and some of whom I'll likely never meet. But that's how it goes. At the end of the day, it's just an online discussion.
-YendorMike

[link|http://www.hope-ride.org/|http://www.hope-ride.org/]
New no its not its Zlife :-)
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New Re: What would I do?
Mike wrote:

It is, after all, just a website.

It really comes down to a quality of life issue. When someone intrudes into my life with rubbish, I attempt to dispose of the rubbish. (wIWETHEY, alas, lacks killfiles.) If that doesn't work, e.g., we have a case of someone who does not get a clue when I tell him to go away and I'm not his personal research service, and whose pattern of intellectual dishonesty offends me, then we have an ongoing problem, which I generally resolve by bulldozing it out of my way.

The question, in any event, was (obviously) rhetorical: I'm not seeking advice from someone who immediately resorts to assinine drive-by rhetoric like "ObMyDickIsBiggerThanYours".

But if you wish to volunteer to deal with that other person ("have my share"), by all means do it if you can.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
New Difference of opinion == intellectual dishonesty?
Wow

Floored. Thats what I am.

I don't need you to be my research service. You've mixed your inputs with your outputs (try polling the input buffer every now and then - you'll seem like less of an ass).



I think that it's extraordinarily important that we in computer science keep fun in computing. When it started out, it was an awful lot of fun. Of course, the paying customer got shafted every now and then, and after a while we began to take their complaints seriously. We began to feel as if we really were responsible for the successful, error-free perfect use of these machines. I don't think we are. I think we're responsible for stretching them, setting them off in new directions, and keeping fun in the house. I hope the field of computer science never loses its sense of fun. Above all, I hope we don't become missionaries. Don't feel as if you're Bible salesmen. The world has too many of those already. What you know about computing other people will learn. Don't feel as if the key to successful computing is only in your hands. What's in your hands, I think and hope, is intelligence: the ability to see the machine as more than when you were first led up to it, that you can make it more.

--Alan Perlis
New Wow better than hockey
-drl
New I went to the fights the other night...
...and a discussion forum broke out. :-)
New ROFL!
...rare is the dollar of corporate profits that bears a tax burden heavier than the burden on an employee's wages.
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/opinion/columns/kinsleymichael/|Michael Kinsley]
New You ought to reread the thread
Because it was a reasonable exchange until:

Welcome to open-source, kiddo

And from this point on you acted like a condescending dickhead.

Anyhow, I don't generally bother to respond to you unless you make a statement I consider to be irresponsible. Like OS X should be configured with mixed UFS and HFS files systems. Or that code should be trusted to beta quality version control systems.

I think thats bad advice and I tried to point out why.

Then you do your little church lady superior dance and damn if it isnt easy to keep you posting "I'm an asshole" proclaiming post after another.

Clearly you have a security problem - and its got nothing to do with computers.



I think that it's extraordinarily important that we in computer science keep fun in computing. When it started out, it was an awful lot of fun. Of course, the paying customer got shafted every now and then, and after a while we began to take their complaints seriously. We began to feel as if we really were responsible for the successful, error-free perfect use of these machines. I don't think we are. I think we're responsible for stretching them, setting them off in new directions, and keeping fun in the house. I hope the field of computer science never loses its sense of fun. Above all, I hope we don't become missionaries. Don't feel as if you're Bible salesmen. The world has too many of those already. What you know about computing other people will learn. Don't feel as if the key to successful computing is only in your hands. What's in your hands, I think and hope, is intelligence: the ability to see the machine as more than when you were first led up to it, that you can make it more.

--Alan Perlis
New lrpadism of the year nominee
Clearly you have a security problem - and it's got nothing to do with computers.
(Fixed a typo from the original.)
===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
New Re: You ought to reread the thread
Todd wrote:

Because it was a reasonable exchange until:

"Welcome to open-source, kiddo"

And from this point on you acted like a condescending dickhead.

Well, chum (and you may take that in any sense you wish, including in particular the shark kind), the truth is that I have seldom seen such a ripe candidate for condescension. Whining about version numbers below 1.0? Yeah, indeed, that's indeed part of the proprietary-software addict's mindset, along with complaining that other people's software that you don't choose to use is clearly unacceptable because, unlike the polished examples of perfection you favour, it has bug reports (eek!), doesn't have the right lipgloss applied to it by the Church of Steve, isn't vetted by the Human Interface Guidelines fashion police, and hasn't been marketed to you with adequate numbers of testimonials.

Like OS X should be configured with mixed UFS and HFS files systems.

Clue: I've been using mixed UFS/HFS+ systems since the early OS X Server betas. It's really simple: Following the pattern with the rest of Unix, if you tell the system to do something really stupid that will discard a file extent, it will gladly comply. As the old joke goes: "So Don't Do That, Then."

You claim that you can't understand what "doing something really stupid" means in this context unless I can show you a manpage. My first reaction is incredulity: I'm supposed to believe you're a MacOS developer who honestly doesn't understand basic file semantics? My second reaction is pity: You honestly think manpages are tutorial materials?

But then I realise that "honestly" is more likely not in this picture at all, and remember your attempt to hustle everyone with that "all software is proprietary" shuck and jive. I.e., the natural inferences is that you're trying to invent an issue about manpages as tutorials because you think nobody's bright enough to spot a whopper like that.

Now, you happen to prefer your systems built 100% on the crappier of those two filesystems just so more of your scissors are rounded and your little bike has training wheels. Good for you. But telling those of us who do know the basics of file semantics that we're "irresponsible" is both pathetic and fscking rude. And I don't fscking care what your software church preaches to you.

Or that code should be trusted to beta quality version control systems.

And this reminds me of one of the subtler reasons why many open-source projects deliberately keep their version numbers pre-1.0 for extended periods of time: It reduces the idiot quotient among the userbase, by driving away those who won't use the code without an adequate marketing dance.

I'll bet even you can find the Subversion Project's criteria for a 1.0 release, by the way. It's on the front page of their Web site. And the list of nine release-critical bugs is two links from there. See if you can find that, too.

Or not. Just to be crystal-clear on this point: I don't give a tinker's damn what software you use and don't use, and would merely prefer that you work out your personal problems far from me. That's highly unlikely to ever change, but don't call me; I'll call you.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Expand Edited by rickmoen Jan. 24, 2003, 01:19:38 PM EST
New Your post is off topic and should have been moved to... (new thread)
Created as new thread #76741 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=76741|Your post is off topic and should have been moved to...]



I think that it's extraordinarily important that we in computer science keep fun in computing. When it started out, it was an awful lot of fun. Of course, the paying customer got shafted every now and then, and after a while we began to take their complaints seriously. We began to feel as if we really were responsible for the successful, error-free perfect use of these machines. I don't think we are. I think we're responsible for stretching them, setting them off in new directions, and keeping fun in the house. I hope the field of computer science never loses its sense of fun. Above all, I hope we don't become missionaries. Don't feel as if you're Bible salesmen. The world has too many of those already. What you know about computing other people will learn. Don't feel as if the key to successful computing is only in your hands. What's in your hands, I think and hope, is intelligence: the ability to see the machine as more than when you were first led up to it, that you can make it more.

--Alan Perlis
     Major CVS security hole - (admin) - (35)
         Red Hat (at least RH8.0) had CVS fix yesterday. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
         Now who has the job of crawling thru the codebase? - (boxley) - (25)
             Re: Now who has the job of crawling thru the codebase? - (rickmoen) - (24)
                 Subversion is not ready yet - (tuberculosis) - (23)
                     Suffer with CVS as long as you like - (rickmoen) - (22)
                         You mean need - (tuberculosis) - (17)
                             Re: You mean need - (rickmoen) - (16)
                                 Re: You mean need - (tuberculosis) - (14)
                                     Re: You mean need - (rickmoen) - (13)
                                         ObMyDickIsBiggerThanYours -NT - (Yendor) - (12)
                                             Re: ObMyDickIsBiggerThanYours - (rickmoen) - (11)
                                                 What would I do? - (Yendor) - (6)
                                                     no its not its Zlife :-) -NT - (boxley)
                                                     Re: What would I do? - (rickmoen) - (4)
                                                         Difference of opinion == intellectual dishonesty? - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                                             Wow better than hockey -NT - (deSitter) - (2)
                                                                 I went to the fights the other night... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                                     ROFL! -NT - (Silverlock)
                                                 You ought to reread the thread - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                                     lrpadism of the year nominee - (drewk)
                                                     Re: You ought to reread the thread - (rickmoen) - (1)
                                                         Your post is off topic and should have been moved to... (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
                                 Re: You mean need - (deSitter)
                         I would not touch arch with a 10' pole - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                             Re: I would not touch arch with a 10' pole - (rickmoen)
                             Mr. Bad fan club - (rickmoen) - (1)
                                 Why doesn't this surprise me? :-/ -NT - (ben_tilly)
         It's official: UNIX sucks just like Windows - (deSitter) - (7)
             "Trowelled". -NT - (pwhysall) - (2)
                 Allowed - (deSitter) - (1)
                     Yes... but... - (folkert)
             Its the services - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                 Have to disagree - (deSitter) - (1)
                     Uh... yep... - (folkert)
             OK, get on that and get back to us. -NT - (tseliot)

My other car got stolen by Ashton.
154 ms