IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New Re: Cosmological Point-Counterpoint
Disney's paper referenced one really nifty idea, some ideas I couldn't evaluate, and a titanically bogus idea. The nifty idea was Harwitt 1981; the idea of using different sets of data to estimate the total number of important discoveries left to be made. That's a clever and really cool trick. Back of the envelope stuff, to be sure, but still very clever.

The bogus idea -- this is the big one. The idea that observational sciences aren't, because you can't apply statistical methods to a single universe with a single history, is utterly and totally wrong. I read the paper twice, to make sure that he wasn't really saying what he seemed to be, but no, that seems to be the core claim. It will undoubtedly come as a great shock to geologists, evolutionary biologists, economists, and astronomers that what they are doing is not science, and that statistical methods don't apply to their fields of endeavor. If I reach out my hand, I can touch a dozen books that supply ample refutation of that claim. That's a pragmatic refutation. There are also reasons from algorithmic information theory to doubt his characterization of science, but I'll leave those for another day.

That's an idea stupid enough that it makes me dubious about everything else he writes. And I *agree* with his core pragmatic claims, namely that 1) Big Science is quite likely a waste of money, 2) cosmologists trying to appear philosophical and religious just look stupid, and 3) anyone who thinks we're close to solving it all is smoking crack. His paper does not add any reasons for me to believe these arguments at all.

Cerkovic's paper basically spent its time shooting the holes in Disney's facts. While this is fun, the argument seemed to be "if Disney can't get facts X, Y, and Z right, why should we believe claims 1, 2, and 3?" This is good rhetoric, but bad logic. But hell, given how easy Disney made it for Cerkovic, can you blame him? I sure can't.
New A more responsible take, of course.. but still -
Disney's was just good clean..


whoa.. let's take another look at this-all, and the wonderful predictions
(er, especially about the umm future)
and the *funding* and aw shucks..



Fun !
New Exactly
I completely agree with this assessment. In a sense, *both* expositions are rhetorical, and I'm sure Disney, a highly respected astrophysicist who in fact deals with the statistics of galaxy counts all the time, somewhat regrets his phrasing, and I'm not certain he said what he meant in the heat of writing a (much needed) polemic.

An even larger whopper in my opinion is the sophistic analogy Cirkovic draws between dark matter and neutrinos. If the understanding of neutrinos were still in its nascent stage after 70 years, that is, it's something but we don't know what and can't tell how to find out, then the idea would have been dropped like phlogiston and homunculi. But in fact there is a dynamics of neutrinos and they can be directly observed, so they have a real, verifiable existence. Certainly Pauli did not envision Cheshire cats with his idea of neutrinos, and fully expected, and helped supply, the theoretical background that allowed the direct observations to be carried out.

Disney to me had the same righteous anger at the perversion of science as did Halton Arp in "Seeing Red" (a fantastic book!) and so I can forgive him. Cirkovic seemed to me to be more of a smart-ass apologist for bad science.

By the way, Cirkovic's rhetorical method, to attack the messenger and adopt a high moral tone, is de rigeur behavior from all Bangers when confronted with unpleasant facts.
New Phlogiston dead? Oh no, my son..
Dissolve white Phosphorous in xxx (Censored, a nasty smelling red liquid of low viscosity) - pour a tad of this solution on Any combustible in open air: rapid raising to the kindling temp; even a mass like a say, phone pole - starts burning. (Glad it hasn't reached the arsenals yet of.. too many nut-cases)

Phlogiston! (well.. we called it that :-)

OK OK - know what'cha mean. Concur re the Righteousness of the fulminations of Bangers as and when - their fav playpen is invaded by the unwashed - (umm, those uncomfortable with extrapolations backwards, via fanciful musings and lots of faith?) Numerology is.. well sometimes good clean fun, til you start believing it!

Now English bangers - those be Good! (if not necessarily good for you)
     Cosmological Point-Counterpoint - (deSitter) - (7)
         Weee-eeell.... - (imric)
         I agree with Disney - (ben_tilly)
         Acclimation to acclamation or, touch\ufffd - (Ashton)
         Re: Cosmological Point-Counterpoint - (neelk) - (3)
             A more responsible take, of course.. but still - - (Ashton)
             Exactly - (deSitter) - (1)
                 Phlogiston dead? Oh no, my son.. - (Ashton)

Also, a cat pissed through the front of it and it won't boot any more.
37 ms