At great peril, my 2.

Post #6,800 by mmoffitt 8/27/01 12:12:05 PM Reply	At great peril, my 2. Absolutely take no issue with your anger at the father for threatening his daughter - no one should ever do that to a child. However, I have 2 daughters myself and if either of them became pregnant at 17, there would not be any option for them either. Their pregnancies would be terminated. A teen pregnancy is a mistake. It is unwise to compound one pubescent mistake with a second, far more grievous mistake: allowing the pregnancy to go to term. Children should never be allowed to produce children. Further, it should not be left to children to decide whether or not they should produce children. It is generally accepted that children under the age of 18 are not prepared to decide who should be elected to public office. Allowing children under 18 to decide whether or not to terminate unwanted pregnancies is saying, "You are not prepared to vote, but you are prepared to be a parent." I don't think that position can be defended, especially when I think of the handful of cousins I have who delivered their first and second babies before reaching their 20th birthdays.
Post #6,814 by boxley 8/27/01 12:56:57 PM Reply	no peril having a child at 17 is not something I would care to contemplate but I do not make that decision, the bearer of the child does and should have all the facts pro and con then step back and let what happens happen. My kids have already been told, do whatever but grandkids dont live here cause we are going to move when you are 18 and we aint leaving a forwarding address :) thanx, bill Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves. Chuck Palahniuk
Post #6,850 by mmoffitt 8/27/01 4:20:35 PM Reply	But, should a 17 year-old be allowed to make that decision? Personally, I'm not thrilled that most 20-nothings I know are able to reproduce :-). But a 17 year-old kid? Too young to truly comprehend the consequences, imo. What should be the lower bound for allowing a young girl to decide whether or not to terminate? Its not uncommon for a child in the US to become sexually mature at age 11. Do we allow 11 and 12 year olds to make the choice about continuing a pregnancy? I'm just not that comfortable with allowing kids to shoot themselves in the foot that easily. Yeah, they shouldn't have had sex, okay, they screwed up (no pun intended). Their judgement was poor. So, do we then allow them to make a decision that could screw up the rest of their lives?
Post #6,855 by ChrisR 8/27/01 4:30:03 PM Reply	None... What should be the lower bound for allowing a young girl to decide whether or not to terminate? Why should there be a lower boundary at all? A girl that becomes pregnant is, almost by definition, a woman. A woman, no matter their age, should decide the matter.
Post #6,954 by boxley 8/28/01 10:24:11 AM Reply	this stuff runs smack dab into my belief system I believe I have th right to do anything at any time, to sustain that belief I must grant it to others. I know, its messed up but I am too old to change now. thanx, bill Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves. Chuck Palahniuk
Post #6,816 by Fearless Freep 8/27/01 1:00:19 PM Reply	Re: At great peril, my 2. However, I have 2 daughters myself and if either of them became pregnant at 17, there would not be any option for them either. Their pregnancies would be terminated. A teen pregnancy is a mistake. It is unwise to compound one pubescent mistake with a second, far more grievous mistake: allowing the pregnancy to go to term. However, I have 2 daughters myself and if either of them became pregnant at 17, there would not be any option for them either. Their pregnancies would go to term. A teen pregnancy is a mistake. It is unwise to compound one pubescent mistake with a second, far more grievous mistake: murdering the baby Jay O'Connor "Going places unmapped to do things unplanned to people unsuspecting"
Post #6,841 by Ashton 8/27/01 3:47:45 PM Reply	baby^h^h^h^h zygote. Cant error: 401.
Post #6,872 by Simon_Jester 8/27/01 5:37:25 PM Reply	heh...You're both making the same mistake... in assuming that you'll have final control over the matter. It's not a decision neither of you truly get to make. And that's from a guy who DOESN'T have daughters...but remembers what 17 year olds truly CAN do.
Post #6,877 by mmoffitt 8/27/01 5:52:37 PM Reply	Maybe. But I CAN cut the money off.
Post #6,884 by Simon_Jester 8/27/01 6:26:40 PM Reply	True. No argument there... It's important - in situations like this - to remember what you get to decide and what others get to decide. It's also important to remember that, in this case, your decisions will create a framework for other's decisions. Be wary that you do not force someone into a decision that you do not want. Decide first what your goals are by first determining what is (most) important to you. Then make decisions that further your goals. If preventing your daughter from 'ruining' her life is the most important thing - by all means, feel free to cut her off. If, however, you find that your relationship with her is the most important thing, then you might want to think twice - such an action may cause her to take a radical course of action - such as moving to a distant state for a job - not to mention a great amount of diswill generated between the two of you. . How you want to react is your decision.
Post #6,849 by ChrisR 8/27/01 4:19:02 PM Reply	What about choice? The only difference between the above article and your reasoning is the method of enforcement. So how exactly do you propose to make your 17 year old daughter obey your command to get an abortion if she desires to deliver the baby? It sounds as if you rule out physical threats to bring a child in line, but what means do you propose to impose your will on that child?
Post #6,852 by mmoffitt 8/27/01 4:27:34 PM Reply	Physical Threats are out. As are threats concerning "never seeing your family", etc. But I think financial threats are fair game. My problem with this situation is better explained above. How would I force my daughters to have an abortion? I'd try to persuade them and if that failed, as hard as it would be, I'd cut them off financially completely. BL is that if I've done my job as a parent, she won't find herself in this predicament and if she does, she'll terminate the pregnancy of her own accord.
Post #6,858 by ChrisR 8/27/01 4:45:05 PM Reply	I don't see that as a solution... How would I force my daughters to have an abortion? I'd try to persuade them and if that failed, as hard as it would be, I'd cut them off financially completely. As I see it, you are likely to get the exact opposite effect that you desire. You, on the one hand, say that your daughter is not old enuf to be an adult, but on the other hand you completely cut off that same daughter because shee will not bend to your will. Instead of having to contend just with the ominous task of becoming a mother, she also has to fend completely for herself when it comes to food, sheltering, transportation, etc. You have restricted the choice to two extremes: have an abortion which she may forever regret, or have the child and cut almost all ties that she has with you.
Post #6,863 by drewk 8/27/01 5:06:56 PM Reply	Don't know that I agree, but his position is consistent He's basically telling his daughter that in his opinion she is not an adult, not ready for this. If she wants to disagree, then she is saying that she is an adult. For a daughter to say, "I'm an adult and I can do what I want ... oh by the way, could you buy some diapers and formula when you go to the store?" is trying to have it both ways. My daughter is still at least a decade away from this becoming an issue, so I can't swear to how I will feel when it is. But I do believe there are times that parents should tell their children that they (the parents) will not support certain decisions. Having a child is a special case, in that the decision can't be changed so there is no chance to reconsider. This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Post #6,867 by ChrisR 8/27/01 5:23:26 PM Reply	Drawing lines in the sand... But I do believe there are times that parents should tell their children that they (the parents) will not support certain decisions. I agree that there are times, but to draw absolute lines in the sand just shows a lack of understanding about the dynamics of human relationships. Let's take the matter from a different direction. Let's say said daughter is a Freshman in college, having attained the ripe old age of 18. Let's also say that daughter is financially dependent on parents. Let's say Dad has agreed that 18 years is old enuf for daughter to decide on her own - by the standards that he has set. Will Dad continue to financially support this daughter if she decides of her own volition to have the child? Does dad have one set of rules that apply to under 18 and another that apply to over 18? Would he be willing to assist an 18 year old mother but unwilling to assist a 17 year old mother?
Post #6,875 by mmoffitt 8/27/01 5:46:27 PM Reply	Not me ;-) >>Will Dad continue to financially support this daughter if she decides of her own volition to have the child? Because I know the evidence is strong that this daughter will not finish college if she has a child in her freshman year. As long as you're on my dime, you're on my time. It still would be a mistake, although arguably not as grievous as if this daughter was 14 and pregnant.
Post #6,883 by Another Scott 8/27/01 6:15:14 PM Reply	Not being a parent, and not likely to be ... Take this with a grain of salt. :-) It's good to have convictions about things. But I don't understand how you can have such strong views about this when there have to be other circumstances which haven't been discussed. I understand that this is hypothetical. Was she "going steady" with someone? Was it a one-night stand? How long had they been dating? Do they love each other or was it hormones? How good is she in making reasonable decisions? Did she intentionally get pregnant to spite you? Was this completely out of character for her? Is she sneaking around without your knowledge or were you inattentive to what she was doing? I think the circumstances matter a great deal. I knew a couple in high school (late '70s). They'd been dating for several years and fooled around a lot. She got pregnant when she was 16 or so. (His father was a minister.) They got married, earlier than they planned, and she had the child. They had a few more too. They were a wonderful couple and were having a great life together the last I saw them. He had his own business and was doing pretty well. I knew another girl in high school who got pregnant and had her child and continued to attend high school and I think went off to college. Abortion wasn't an option for her, and she had no interest in marrying the guy. I think her family helped raise the kid. She was in the honor society. I agree with you that it's most likely that a girl having a child at 16 is going to have many difficulties in life. It'll be hard on you and her no matter which way the decision is made. But I don't think you can declare at this point that "this is the way it's going to be" without considering the circumstances. And I agree with Simon that if she's in this situation it's very difficult to impose your will at this late date. In short, I think your reaction should depend on the circumstances. It may be that imposing your will on her (by causing her to feel rejection, or maybe causing her to feel grief over the loss, etc.) may be more damaging than her having the child. Having her live on the street, or in a crack house or something isn't something anyone should be forced to do - but some people feel they have no choice. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #6,864 by mmoffitt 8/27/01 5:11:33 PM Reply	Whoa Bessy. >>on the other hand you completely cut off that same daughter because shee will not bend to your will. Bend to my will? Should I read that as "take my advice and not throw her life away"? If she's hell-bent to throw her life away, you seem to be telling me that I ought to let her. And personally pay for it. Thank you but, no. Anyone can make a mistake, but it takes real genius to fail to recognize the mistake and then intensify it with another along the same vein. >>You have restricted the choice to two extremes: ... have the child and cut almost all ties that she has with you. No, only financial ties. Oh, but I thought your position was that any child capable of reproduction was "almost by definition" prepared to be an adult. The logical extension of that argument is that "any child capable of reproduction is capable of self-sufficiency." I don't believe it, but you apparently do. And if my pregnant daughter also embraced that notion, well then so be it. Let's see if that position is valid. But, we already know what that would lead to, don't we? Which is why you decry my financial abandonment. See, you don't really think a teen-ager is "ready" to be an adult, do you? You know a teen-ager is not ready for self-sufficiency, let alone the responsibilities of parenthood. The facts are that children who have children are almost certain to be condemned to a life of poverty. And that shouldn't prevent us from stopping them? Nonsense.
Post #6,891 by Ashton 8/27/01 7:14:32 PM Reply	You're both kinda- right? The inevitable but.. And both obviously experienced and intelligent enough to see the mares nest - anytime a particular 'choice' comes down to exercising power of one over the other. Consensus is what all would wish - but that actually means.. that neither side gets All of the desired outcome, yet: finally agree that the compromise can be relatively free of festering resentment (no guarantees on that.. with time and next life experience). However phrased, to invoke parental authority over (a) choice, reinforced by withholding (something previously provided) - when translated into emotional terms, as ever is the case - is bartering. Bartering 'continuing love', say VS 'continuing obedience'. It Will be taken such, however much 'love', by parent is defined as, "saving you from serious life-mistakes". Meaning well.. is the prelude to most fiascos we know of. But as a matter of attitude, I guess I am of the school that all generalizations are false, including this one. Rigid application of any 'principle' produces the Authoritarian mindset and creates Repos and Righteous ones (always acting on some terrestrial or extra-t 'Authority', so as to pass the buck Higher, rationalizing their own ego-inspired Draconian actions). Maybe the most malignant aspect of this attitude is the 'Certainty' with which the power is wielded, overlayed upon the Authoritarian one: One Way to live else bzzzt Wrong. Kids of all ages through senility react to both A and C in similar ways, in my experience (of myself and others). Ego does not Like other Egos taking power! The Gandhis of the world are ever careful to express their direction.. as far away from ego/ego confrontation as their wisdom allows. We could do worse than to emulate the Masters, no? Ashton each case is unique\ufffd as is each person
Post #6,979 by mmoffitt 8/28/01 12:45:13 PM Reply	You're kinda right, too. The one truism in this country is one that has never made much sense to me: "It takes two people to start a pregnancy, but only one to continue it." We may argue the merits of the biological father having no input when it comes to determining whether an unwanted pregnancy is continued or not, but I cannot see how allowing 12-17 year-old little girls to be exclusively in charge of making that decision benefits anyone. Certainly there are anecdotal cases of "Brenda and Eddie" who successfully survived a mid to late-teen marriage and are quite happy. However, I believe the evidence is that most children born to children do not fair well. To say nothing of the extreme limitations placed upon the child-parent. The reality is that if my 15 year-old daughter was pregnant, if I tried to stop her from carrying the pregnancy to term, I'm pretty sure that some "right to lifer" would get me into legal trouble for trying to coerce my daughter into terminating the pregnancy. This is beyond my comprehension. I had my first daughter at age 31. I had no idea all that was involved, yet, I had a far better understanding than any 12-17 year-old kid would. Bringing another person into the world is a decision which cannot be made lightly. Allowing some one who is not yet self-sufficient (hence, completely unprepared to take on the total dependancy of a new child) to make that decision is in no one's best interest. bcnu, Mikem
Post #7,017 by Ashton 8/28/01 5:58:12 PM Reply	Silly CRs in title - at zIWE too ?? [mask! em] Yes, in the end - that's the stark er 'reality'. I'm addressing only the methods; no disagreement with the aims or the Fact that damn few under age [thirty ?] have the slightest inkling of the 18+year process they have initiated! (All have seen too many ads with smiling baby, mother having tea party and a Yuppie mansion as background. Not the running negative bank-balance, as both work to maintain a 2-room industrially-overpriced hangout, with sirens in the distance. And BBFH (bastard baby-sitters from..)) Still and all - direct Power-confrontation simply has to be the Last resort after all calm, restrained discussion has miserably failed, even after near-bribery and other wiles. That's all. Last-resorts create their own momentum which tends to create new, often petulant and irrational branches, to an already unfortunate morass :[ A.
Post #7,245 by mmoffitt 8/30/01 2:51:12 PM Reply	D'accord. I failed to make the case strongly enough that its my view that I will have failed if this ever happens to my daughters very early on. I understand your point re:ultimatums and am in agreement. It is difficult in this Murican post-intellectual period to counter all the corporate crap that innundates my kids, but I do my best. Hopefully, I can impart some wisdom upon them. Now is the time for me to do that, not after they've gone through puberty. bcnu, Mikem
Post #6,955 by boxley 8/28/01 10:29:21 AM Reply	All he had to do was take them to the fair [link\|http://www.adn.com/alaska/story/671015p-713541c.html\|http://www.adn.com/...713541c.html] Booth at fair handing out prescriptions for a morning after drug. This info would have saved a lot of grief. Lets make sure everyone knows about this option. thanx, bill Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves. Chuck Palahniuk
Post #6,981 by mmoffitt 8/28/01 12:46:38 PM Reply	Don't forget about Morning After D & C's either.

Welcome to IWETHEY!