IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New I am annoyed
was told that a feller I sorta know found out daughter (17) was pregnant, dragged her to an abortion clinic and threatened to cut off all funding for food and shelter unless complied with. Threatened greivious bodily harm told girl if estranged mom was notrified she would never see her twin sister again ad nausium. Since he is too far away to maim, and it aint my immediate family and I dont have any puiblic view on abortion either pro or con I am still enflamed that decisionmaking by 3rd parties due to parental notification laws instead of a rational (how the f it could be rational) decision by the human intimately involved could occur.
One more ass beating added to my list for the next time I am in fairbanks I guess. Cheap cocwhatever aught to realize when these kids are not under his total control it will be a lonely old age.
sigh,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Bad situation. :-(
New At great peril, my 2.
Absolutely take no issue with your anger at the father for threatening his daughter - no one should ever do that to a child.

However, I have 2 daughters myself and if either of them became pregnant at 17, there would not be any option for them either. Their pregnancies would be terminated. A teen pregnancy is a mistake. It is unwise to compound one pubescent mistake with a second, far more grievous mistake: allowing the pregnancy to go to term.

Children should never be allowed to produce children. Further, it should not be left to children to decide whether or not they should produce children.

It is generally accepted that children under the age of 18 are not prepared to decide who should be elected to public office. Allowing children under 18 to decide whether or not to terminate unwanted pregnancies is saying, "You are not prepared to vote, but you are prepared to be a parent." I don't think that position can be defended, especially when I think of the handful of cousins I have who delivered their first and second babies before reaching their 20th birthdays.

New no peril
having a child at 17 is not something I would care to contemplate but I do not make that decision, the bearer of the child does and should have all the facts pro and con then step back and let what happens happen. My kids have already been told, do whatever but grandkids dont live here cause we are going to move when you are 18 and we aint leaving a forwarding address :)
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New But, should a 17 year-old be allowed to make that decision?
Personally, I'm not thrilled that most 20-nothings I know are able to reproduce :-). But a 17 year-old kid? Too young to truly comprehend the consequences, imo. What should be the lower bound for allowing a young girl to decide whether or not to terminate? Its not uncommon for a child in the US to become sexually mature at age 11. Do we allow 11 and 12 year olds to make the choice about continuing a pregnancy?

I'm just not that comfortable with allowing kids to shoot themselves in the foot that easily. Yeah, they shouldn't have had sex, okay, they screwed up (no pun intended). Their judgement was poor. So, do we then allow them to make a decision that could screw up the rest of their lives?

New None...
What should be the lower bound for allowing a young girl to decide whether or not to terminate?
Why should there be a lower boundary at all? A girl that becomes pregnant is, almost by definition, a woman. A woman, no matter their age, should decide the matter.
New this stuff runs smack dab into my belief system
I believe I have th right to do anything at any time, to sustain that belief I must grant it to others. I know, its messed up but I am too old to change now.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: At great peril, my 2.
However, I have 2 daughters myself and if either of them became pregnant at 17, there would not be any option for them either. Their pregnancies would be terminated. A teen pregnancy is a mistake. It is unwise to compound one pubescent mistake with a second, far more grievous mistake: allowing the pregnancy to go to term.


However, I have 2 daughters myself and if either of them became pregnant at 17, there would not be any option for them either. Their pregnancies would go to term. A teen pregnancy is a mistake. It is unwise to compound one pubescent mistake with a second, far more grievous mistake: murdering the baby
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New baby^h^h^h^h zygote. Cant error: 401.
New heh...You're both making the same mistake...
in assuming that you'll have final control over the matter. It's not a decision neither of you truly get to make.

And that's from a guy who DOESN'T have daughters...but remembers what 17 year olds truly CAN do.

New Maybe. But I *CAN* cut the money off.
New True. No argument there...

It's important - in situations like this - to remember what you get to decide and what others get to decide.


It's also important to remember that, in this case, your decisions will create a framework for other's decisions. Be wary that you do not force someone into a decision that you do not want.


Decide first what your goals are by first determining what is (most) important to you. Then make decisions that further your goals. If preventing your daughter from 'ruining' her life is the most important thing - by all means, feel free to cut her off. If, however, you find that your relationship with her is the most important thing, then you might want to think twice - such an action may cause her to take a radical course of action - such as moving to a distant state for a job - not to mention a great amount of diswill generated between the two of you.

.

How you want to react is your decision.

New What about choice?
The only difference between the above article and your reasoning is the method of enforcement. So how exactly do you propose to make your 17 year old daughter obey your command to get an abortion if she desires to deliver the baby? It sounds as if you rule out physical threats to bring a child in line, but what means do you propose to impose your will on that child?
New Physical Threats are out.
As are threats concerning "never seeing your family", etc.

But I think financial threats are fair game. My problem with this situation is better explained above.

How would I force my daughters to have an abortion? I'd try to persuade them and if that failed, as hard as it would be, I'd cut them off financially completely.

BL is that if I've done my job as a parent, she won't find herself in this predicament and if she does, she'll terminate the pregnancy of her own accord.
New I don't see that as a solution...
How would I force my daughters to have an abortion? I'd try to persuade them and if that failed, as hard as it would be, I'd cut them off financially completely.
As I see it, you are likely to get the exact opposite effect that you desire. You, on the one hand, say that your daughter is not old enuf to be an adult, but on the other hand you completely cut off that same daughter because shee will not bend to your will. Instead of having to contend just with the ominous task of becoming a mother, she also has to fend completely for herself when it comes to food, sheltering, transportation, etc. You have restricted the choice to two extremes: have an abortion which she may forever regret, or have the child and cut almost all ties that she has with you.

New Don't know that I agree, but his position is consistent
He's basically telling his daughter that in his opinion she is not an adult, not ready for this. If she wants to disagree, then she is saying that she is an adult. For a daughter to say, "I'm an adult and I can do what I want ... oh by the way, could you buy some diapers and formula when you go to the store?" is trying to have it both ways.

My daughter is still at least a decade away from this becoming an issue, so I can't swear to how I will feel when it is. But I do believe there are times that parents should tell their children that they (the parents) will not support certain decisions. Having a child is a special case, in that the decision can't be changed so there is no chance to reconsider.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
New Drawing lines in the sand...
But I do believe there are times that parents should tell their children that they (the parents) will not support certain decisions.
I agree that there are times, but to draw absolute lines in the sand just shows a lack of understanding about the dynamics of human relationships.

Let's take the matter from a different direction. Let's say said daughter is a Freshman in college, having attained the ripe old age of 18. Let's also say that daughter is financially dependent on parents. Let's say Dad has agreed that 18 years is old enuf for daughter to decide on her own - by the standards that he has set. Will Dad continue to financially support this daughter if she decides of her own volition to have the child? Does dad have one set of rules that apply to under 18 and another that apply to over 18? Would he be willing to assist an 18 year old mother but unwilling to assist a 17 year old mother?
New Not me ;-)
>>Will Dad continue to financially support this daughter if she decides of her own volition to have the child?

Because I know the evidence is strong that this daughter will not finish college if she has a child in her freshman year. As long as you're on my dime, you're on my time.

It still would be a mistake, although arguably not as grievous as if this daughter was 14 and pregnant.
New Not being a parent, and not likely to be ...
Take this with a grain of salt. :-)

It's good to have convictions about things. But I don't understand how you can have such strong views about this when there have to be other circumstances which haven't been discussed.

I understand that this is hypothetical.

Was she "going steady" with someone? Was it a one-night stand? How long had they been dating? Do they love each other or was it hormones?

How good is she in making reasonable decisions? Did she intentionally get pregnant to spite you? Was this completely out of character for her? Is she sneaking around without your knowledge or were you inattentive to what she was doing?

I think the circumstances matter a great deal.

I knew a couple in high school (late '70s). They'd been dating for several years and fooled around a lot. She got pregnant when she was 16 or so. (His father was a minister.) They got married, earlier than they planned, and she had the child. They had a few more too. They were a wonderful couple and were having a great life together the last I saw them. He had his own business and was doing pretty well.

I knew another girl in high school who got pregnant and had her child and continued to attend high school and I think went off to college. Abortion wasn't an option for her, and she had no interest in marrying the guy. I think her family helped raise the kid. She was in the honor society.

I agree with you that it's most likely that a girl having a child at 16 is going to have many difficulties in life. It'll be hard on you and her no matter which way the decision is made. But I don't think you can declare at this point that "this is the way it's going to be" without considering the circumstances.

And I agree with Simon that if she's in this situation it's very difficult to impose your will at this late date.

In short, I think your reaction should depend on the circumstances. It may be that imposing your will on her (by causing her to feel rejection, or maybe causing her to feel grief over the loss, etc.) may be more damaging than her having the child. Having her live on the street, or in a crack house or something isn't something anyone should be forced to do - but some people feel they have no choice.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Whoa Bessy.
>>on the other hand you completely cut off that same daughter because shee will not bend to your will.

Bend to my will? Should I read that as "take my advice and not throw her life away"? If she's hell-bent to throw her life away, you seem to be telling me that I ought to let her. And personally pay for it. Thank you but, no. Anyone can make a mistake, but it takes real genius to fail to recognize the mistake and then intensify it with another along the same vein.

>>You have restricted the choice to two extremes: ... have the child and cut almost all ties that she has with you.

No, only financial ties. Oh, but I thought your position was that any child capable of reproduction was "almost by definition" prepared to be an adult. The logical extension of that argument is that "any child capable of reproduction is capable of self-sufficiency." I don't believe it, but you apparently do. And if my pregnant daughter also embraced that notion, well then so be it. Let's see if that position is valid. But, we already know what that would lead to, don't we? Which is why you decry my financial abandonment. See, you don't really think a teen-ager is "ready" to be an adult, do you? You know a teen-ager is not ready for self-sufficiency, let alone the responsibilities of parenthood.

The facts are that children who have children are almost certain to be condemned to a life of poverty. And that shouldn't prevent us from stopping them? Nonsense.
New You're both kinda- right? The inevitable but..
And both obviously experienced and intelligent enough to see the mares nest - anytime a particular 'choice' comes down to exercising power of one over the other.

Consensus is what all would wish - but that actually means.. that neither side gets All of the desired outcome, yet: finally agree that the compromise can be relatively free of festering resentment (no guarantees on that.. with time and next life experience).

However phrased, to invoke parental authority over (a) choice, reinforced by withholding (something previously provided) - when translated into emotional terms, as ever is the case - is bartering. Bartering 'continuing love', say VS 'continuing obedience'. It Will be taken such, however much 'love', by parent is defined as, "saving you from serious life-mistakes". Meaning well.. is the prelude to most fiascos we know of.

But as a matter of attitude, I guess I am of the school that all generalizations are false, including this one. Rigid application of any 'principle' produces the Authoritarian mindset and creates Repos and Righteous ones (always acting on some terrestrial or extra-t 'Authority', so as to pass the buck Higher, rationalizing their own ego-inspired Draconian actions).

Maybe the most malignant aspect of this attitude is the 'Certainty' with which the power is wielded, overlayed upon the Authoritarian one: One Way to live else *bzzzt* Wrong.

Kids of all ages through senility react to both A and C in similar ways, in my experience (of myself and others).

Ego does not Like other Egos taking power! The Gandhis of the world are ever careful to express their direction.. as far away from ego/ego confrontation as their wisdom allows. We could do worse than to emulate the Masters, no?



Ashton
each case is unique\ufffd as is each person
New You're kinda right, too.
The one truism in this country is one that has never made much sense to me:

"It takes two people to start a pregnancy, but only one to continue it."
We may argue the merits of the biological father having no input when it comes to determining whether an unwanted pregnancy is continued or not, but I cannot see how allowing 12-17 year-old little girls to be exclusively in charge of making that decision benefits anyone. Certainly there are anecdotal cases of "Brenda and Eddie" who successfully survived a mid to late-teen marriage and are quite happy. However, I believe the evidence is that most children born to children do not fair well. To say nothing of the extreme limitations placed upon the child-parent.

The reality is that if my 15 year-old daughter was pregnant, if I tried to stop her from carrying the pregnancy to term, I'm pretty sure that some "right to lifer" would get me into legal trouble for trying to coerce my daughter into terminating the pregnancy. This is beyond my comprehension.

I had my first daughter at age 31. I had no idea all that was involved, yet, I had a far better understanding than any 12-17 year-old kid would. Bringing another person into the world is a decision which cannot be made lightly. Allowing some one who is not yet self-sufficient (hence, completely unprepared to take on the total dependancy of a new child) to make that decision is in no one's best interest.

bcnu,
Mikem
New Silly CRs in title - at zIWE too ?? [mask! em]
Yes, in the end - that's the stark er 'reality'. I'm addressing only the methods; no disagreement with the aims or the Fact that damn few under age [thirty ?] have the slightest inkling of the 18+year process they have initiated!

(All have seen too many ads with smiling baby, mother having tea party and a Yuppie mansion as background. Not the running negative bank-balance, as both work to maintain a 2-room industrially-overpriced hangout, with sirens in the distance. And BBFH (bastard baby-sitters from..))

Still and all - direct Power-confrontation simply has to be the Last resort after all calm, restrained discussion has miserably failed, even after near-bribery and other wiles.

That's all. Last-resorts create their own momentum which tends to create new, often petulant and irrational branches, to an already unfortunate morass :[


A.
New D'accord.
I failed to make the case strongly enough that its my view that I will have failed if this ever happens to my daughters very early on. I understand your point re:ultimatums and am in agreement.

It is difficult in this Murican post-intellectual period to counter all the corporate crap that innundates my kids, but I do my best. Hopefully, I can impart some wisdom upon them. Now is the time for me to do that, not after they've gone through puberty.

bcnu,
Mikem
New All he had to do was take them to the fair
[link|http://www.adn.com/alaska/story/671015p-713541c.html|http://www.adn.com/...713541c.html]
Booth at fair handing out prescriptions for a morning after drug. This info would have saved a lot of grief. Lets make sure everyone knows about this option.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Don't forget about Morning After D & C's either.
New Convenience trumps choice.
The grandfather's desire to conveniently dispose of an inconvenient child trumps the mother's choice. And of course the grandchild has no say in the matter.

More evidence that "choice" is just rhetorical bullshit. It's all about power. Grandpa's got it, the fetus hasn't. End of discussion.

[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Pretty Myopic view.
New How so? (nomsg)
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Because it can't be reduced to doggerel.
Only an idiot imagines there *ever* is a nice simplistic EZ choice next to be made. The National Argument\ufffd appears to coalesce around *by whom and how* an eventual choice is made:

in the privacy of one's life - with or without a doctor's opinion (s/he being no more privy to the entire matter than any other Authority figure or especially State operative!) - and as best fits the infinitely complex persons and personalities and capabilities to cope - next.

OR:

Via some hacked-together recipe, heavily laden with Particular theological suppositions and massively contrived political estimates of ~ zygote --> viable? --> possible? emergent citizen -- some many months, events and probabilities, later.

Either camp: there IS a decision. And the BS labels "Pro-Life/Anti-Choice" "Pro-Choice/Anti-Life" demonstrate the poverty of discourse about *most* Murican large issues, after the sloganeers start polarizing the gullible into simplistic faux-Opposites.

It's just.. the Murican Way. Try 'Drugs' (Prohibition! Still in 2001). Distribution of er 'chances for wealth?'. And so on.. slogans. Heat, little light. Dumbth inAction.

So, Yes: your slogan sucks. Too.


A.
New What is life?
If you say that a zygote is not a human, then I suppose you must operate on the assumption that at some point in time that this zygote is somehow transformed into human life. The scientific evidence would rule out that a zygote has much, if any, potential to develop into anything other than what is coded in the DNA. The process of combining DNA results in a growth process that, if allowed to go to completion, will result in some old fart some 75 odd years down the road.

Genetically speaking, everything that you are now, was coded into that zygote. From the moment of conception, you receive almost no new genetic information. Which would seem to indicate that you were once in a state such that you were a zygote. Your senses and general ability to perceive were not fully formed, but all the information was there in that zygote.

Now the assumption in any debate would have to be that human life has innate value. The taking of life, for whatever reason, is something that goes against our sense of right and wrong, whether that be grounded in religious or personal conviction, theological dogma or Darwinian systems. It's a point that must be stressed by both sides in order to make a connection at any level.

The only question left to resolve at that point is what constitutes human life. Can we measure when human life begins? Is it the moment of conception, the moment of sensation? The moment of awareness? the moment of mechanical freedom? Any side you choose in this debate, you are inherently choosing the moment that you suspect represents that magical, mysterious moment where the inertia of the process that began with a sexual act (or in some test tube) results in a human life.

The consequence of holding human life to be the most valuable component for this species, means that you better consider the matter with a certain weight of seriousness. Normally, one would want to err on the side of caution in case one's judgement was somehow flawed, given the fact that we still understand precious little about the universe in which we find ourself.

Anyhow, the real problem with the debate has nothing to do with the proposition of when life begins. Instead, it devolves down to a power confrontation as both sides try to legislate a solution to this vexing problem. I think legislation is fine, one way or the other, as laws do not measure the morality of an issue so much as they measure the popularity and/or power of the parties involved.

I personally don't find legislating this particular brand of morality to be feasible or desirable. But then, I also think that this does not relieve the individual from truly examining the consequences of their actions, no matter whether it's legal or not.
New Re: What is life?
But, don't forget, that zygote needs a truly nurturing environment to develop. Otherwise, it becomes food for other life. So it's not that simple.
Alex

Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel.
-- Anne Frank
New One measurement
Brain activity.

If there is no brain activity, there is no life. One can argue that is as true of a 45-year old accident vidtim vegetable kept alive on life support as it is with something floating inside a woman's womb.

Personally, I find most children under the age of 6 to be monsters anyway. But then I'm a crusty old unmarried man.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
New Full agreement with last \ufffd Such sanity unlikely in Murica.
New Loaded words won't bring consensus.
Hi Chris,

I agree with your last sentence - that legislation on this issue isn't desirable.

What it comes down to for me is: that adults must be able to (and history has shown, will no matter what the law says) control their ability to reproduce. A woman shouldn't be compelled to have a child because she became pregnant.

What is life?

If you say that a zygote is not a human, then I suppose you must operate on the assumption that at some point in time that this zygote is somehow transformed into human life.


"Life" and "human" are loaded words, as everyone involved with the debate knows. An unfertilized egg is alive - it will die if not cared for by the body. A sperm cell is alive - it will die if not cared for by the body. They, like a fertilized egg, have the potential for being precursors of a child.

You may say that few would argue that an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell is "human life". But, there's religious support for just such an argument in Catholic doctrine. E.g.:

[link|http://www.catholic.com/ANSWERS/tracts/contracp.htm|[link|http://www.catholic.com/ANSWERS/tracts/contracp.htm|http://www.catholic...contracp.htm]]
Contraception

In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin: On Human Life), which reemphasized the Church's constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use artificial birth control or contraception for the purpose of preventing new life.

Artificial birth control is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal), the Pill, and all other methods of artificial contraception.

The Historic Christian teaching
Most people don't realize that up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church's teaching and officially condemned contraception as sinful. At its 1930 Lambeth Conference, the Anglican Church capitulated to growing social pressure and announced that henceforth contraception would be allowed in some circumstances. That small crack quickly widened until the Anglican Church completely caved in on this issue, allowing contraception across the board. Since that time, all other Protestant denominations have followed suit, abandoning the historic Christian teaching against contraception and giving in to the permissive mores of secular society.

Today the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception. (Fortunately, though, an increasing number of individual Protestants are realizing that contraception is contrary to the gospel and totally opposed to constant Christian teaching, and they are embracing the Catholic position). Evidence that contraception is in conflict with God's laws comes from a variety of sources:

[...]


If you (the generic you) argue that abortion is wrong, then how can you accept that contraception is OK? Aren't you interfering with the development of a human life? And if you accept the Catholic argument, shouldn't you also agree that every woman should always be pregnant so that the God's commandment to "be fruitful and multiply" be explicitly fulfilled?

I think such a train of argument is sophistry.

At its base, the abortion debate has broken into two sides. One claims to base its arguments on religion, protection of the helpless, etc. The other claims to base its arguments on personal freedom, protection from coercion, etc. Without a common framework there's going to be no consensus and each side will be convinced they're right with little hope of convincing the other.

Cheers,
Scott.
New A small correction
Without entering into the merits, contraception is seen as wrong is not because unfertilized eggs and sperm are considered human beings, but because what is considered a fundamental aspect of the sexual act (the openness to creating life in love--tightly linked to the "in His image male and female created He them" stuff) is being purposely destroyed. It is similar to eating food for the taste and vomiting it up to avoid the nutrition--also considered morally wrong.

Giovanni
New Thanks.
New Actually, it's the story of Onan
I expect someone will correct any mistakes in this telling[1], but basicaly the Catholic doctrine against contraception and masturbation are both based on the Biblical story of [link|http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=onanism|Onan]. He was chastised for "spilling his seed on the ground." This, ever since about the 14th century, has been interpreted to be critical of "wasting" the potential life in the sperm.

During all the study leading up to the Vatican Council in 1976, the Catholic Church had everyone from Cardinals on down to secular scholars studying the Catechism to determine the biblical, theological or other basis for all doctrine. It turned out that the original point of the story of Onan had nothing to do with the "wasting" of the seed.

In the society that Onan lived in, the custom after the death of a married man with no heirs was for his brother to take the widow as a wife to keep the property in the family. Otherwise, whoever married the woman would take all her holdings. Onan, who was already married (betrothed? can't remember which) didn't want to but was pressured. At the last minute he backed out, metaphorically and otherwise, thereby "spilling his seed ..."

So the moral was an exhortaion to put your family's continued wealth ahead of your own desires. Which, barring the particulars of the story, isn't all that bad a moral. But in the 14th century, the pope created the alternate moral as a way of increasing membership in the church.

Fast forward to 1976, and the pope is in an awkward position. He can either go along with an interpretaion that he knows is contrary to the original intent, or he can proclaim that every pope for the past five centuries has perpetuated a lie. Considering that one of the teachings of the Catholic Church is the infallibility of the pope, this second option would call into question any pronouncement the church might make. Under intense pressure from the Cardinals, he left the interpretation in the Catechism unchanged.

This is just one of the many examples I heard in a radio interview with the author of a book about the subject.


[1] Working from memory, so please excuse any minor flaws.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
New Looks like mandatory sex to me
Frankly, I can't see anything in Paul VI's argument that makes abstaning from sex any more licit than any other form of birth control.

White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
     I am annoyed - (boxley) - (38)
         Bad situation. :-( -NT - (Another Scott)
         At great peril, my 2. - (mmoffitt) - (23)
             no peril - (boxley) - (3)
                 But, should a 17 year-old be allowed to make that decision? - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                     None... - (ChrisR)
                     this stuff runs smack dab into my belief system - (boxley)
             Re: At great peril, my 2. - (Fearless Freep) - (4)
                 baby^h^h^h^h zygote. Cant error: 401. -NT - (Ashton)
                 heh...You're both making the same mistake... - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                     Maybe. But I *CAN* cut the money off. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                         True. No argument there... - (Simon_Jester)
             What about choice? - (ChrisR) - (11)
                 Physical Threats are out. - (mmoffitt) - (10)
                     I don't see that as a solution... - (ChrisR) - (9)
                         Don't know that I agree, but his position is consistent - (drewk) - (3)
                             Drawing lines in the sand... - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                 Not me ;-) - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                     Not being a parent, and not likely to be ... - (Another Scott)
                         Whoa Bessy. - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                             You're both kinda- right? The inevitable but.. - (Ashton) - (3)
                                 You're kinda right, too. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                     Silly CRs in title - at zIWE too ?? [mask! em] - (Ashton) - (1)
                                         D'accord. - (mmoffitt)
             All he had to do was take them to the fair - (boxley) - (1)
                 Don't forget about Morning After D & C's either. -NT - (mmoffitt)
         Convenience trumps choice. - (marlowe) - (12)
             Pretty Myopic view. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (11)
                 How so? (nomsg) -NT - (marlowe) - (10)
                     Because it can't be reduced to doggerel. - (Ashton) - (9)
                         What is life? - (ChrisR) - (8)
                             Re: What is life? - (a6l6e6x)
                             One measurement - (wharris2)
                             Full agreement with last \ufffd Such sanity unlikely in Murica. -NT - (Ashton)
                             Loaded words won't bring consensus. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                 A small correction - (GBert) - (2)
                                     Thanks. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                     Actually, it's the story of Onan - (drewk)
                                 Looks like mandatory sex to me - (mhuber)

Who left that on the floor?
296 ms