Re: many other countries in the world

Post #6,397 by addison 8/22/01 10:56:51 PM Reply	Re: many other countries in the world have nationalized their industry to the detriment of American Corporations to both the country's detriment and to ours. Yep. One also might make the case that the whole of the US was similarly "appropriated". (Something I was waiting for someone to point out) I think that you will have to admit that Cuba is a special case. Yep. Cuba who we never have entered hostilities directly since the spanish American war. Hrm. What was that about the Pay Of Bigs? Something like that. That does happen with Cubans. Bill, if I meet you down in Florida - don't say anything like that around my Cuban relatives. Please. :) The reasons for stopping the embargo greatly outnumber the reasons to continue it. The only reason the embargo is still on is big sugar, not the bitter old farts in miami, they lost all sympathy during the Elian horsecrap. That they might. But the concern is propping up Castro. And its not an inconsiderable one - Cuba in its heyday was taking $1M USD in USSR support. Now that that's gone, the US doesn't want to subsidize Castro, to replace the USSR. Bacardi the distiller whose factories were nationalized dont give a crap any more, Not quite what they were saying the other day... They are the ones who keep the preasure on. Actually, its more the ex-Cubans. They've got a ton more political muscle than you're giving them credit for... But I'm just pointing out that Helms Burton isn't quite the arbitrary, stupid law as its usually described (see the first post). It might be a better idea to open everything up, but OTOH, what if that gives Castro the resources to keep Cuba under his heel? Addison
Post #6,400 by boxley 8/22/01 11:26:49 PM Reply	bay of pigs was not American Military Units going full force it was cubans, american friends, cia operatives and they were totaslly screwed by Kennedy who failed the no shit test and cancelled promised air support. The fastest way to topple Castro is to flood the country with cheap american goods, cheap credit and commodities and funding people 2 rungs under him with goodwill cash and no strings. Cuba may go the way of Mexico and the PRI but may also splinter. The idea of the revolution is not nescessarily bad, prolly better than Haiti and Guatamala worse than Belize and Costa Rica but the opening of American trade without strings will make a large Island 90 miles to the south a good partner in the future. Keeping the embargo when the rest of the world decries it makes a hardworking group of people bitter towards us. Sorry your relatives wont like mine, but thats ok I dont like mine either, the little fsck left in the middle of the night after cleaning my sister out and gets an ass whupping if I ever meet him BUT it cant be that bad if he prefered there better than here and he did have a green card. That was why when Elian's dad wanted to take him back I beleived him cause I have seen and met others who beleived in the revolution no matter how irrelevant it is in todays world. thanx, bill Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves. Chuck Palahniuk
Post #6,446 by addison 8/23/01 11:55:30 AM Reply	Semantic difference. Trained by the US, and backed by the US, I'll call that a "US" attack. The fastest way to topple Castro is to flood the country with cheap american goods, cheap credit and commodities and funding people 2 rungs under him with goodwill cash and no strings. Which is exactly why Castro won't let that happen. Revoking Helms-Burton doesn't change the control that Cuban government will have over everything. Keeping the embargo when the rest of the world decries it makes a hardworking group of people bitter towards us. Possibly. But lifting it wouldn't change things for them, there would just have to be another excuse. (In fact, that's a large part of the best reason FOR lifting it, then what would Castro blame the woes on?) BUT it cant be that bad if he prefered there better than here and he did have a green card. I don't know the circumstances, but all the Cubans I know who have gone to visit relatives on the Island shudder when they talk about it. Oh, and lets not forget the ones who come to the Cuban doctor in the family, and beg her to prescribe various drugs (one for chemotherapy) - because the Cuban government and its National Health Care Plan won't let their relatives have what they need (but will allow other people to send in drugs. (which requires a prescription in the US))). I dunno there Bill. Don't sound too great to me. Of course, if I could just sit on the beach all day and fish, well, maybe. Addison
Post #6,547 by boxley 8/23/01 8:46:43 PM Reply	waal he is a lifeguard on the beach and is "connected" lots of cohiba's fall off of trucks into his family's hands. Ma was telling me how tight it is but he doesnt have to be responsible for anything Unca Fidel takes care of it. Fish of the beach for protein, black market cigars for beef and other goodies. thanx, bill Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves. Chuck Palahniuk
Post #6,442 by Another Scott 8/23/01 11:16:11 AM Reply	Please draw your inferences more carefully. Hi Addison, But I'm just pointing out that Helms Burton isn't quite the arbitrary, stupid law as its usually described (see the first post). It might be a better idea to open everything up, but OTOH, what if that gives Castro the resources to keep Cuba under his heel? I didn't call Helms-Burton an "arbitrary, stupid law" in my post. I didn't express any opinion about it, but rather gave a too brief summary of my understanding of what it was. I said he was "a thorn in the side of those attempting to have a reasonable foreign policy, IMHO." A case could be made for the embargo in 1960, and maybe even up through the late '80s when Cuba was supporting revolutionaries in Angola and Central America. I don't know if a strong case could be made, but a case could certainly be made. The embargo was put in place [link\|http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/cmcchron1.html\|August 28, 1960] apparently in response to Cuba and the USSR starting diplomatic relations, the US refusing Cuban sugar exports and the USSR taking it, etc., etc. Helms-Burton became law in March 1996. I don't believe a case can be made for continuing the embargo and Helms-Burton now. Do I think it's an arbitrary law? No, I don't. It was constructed for very specific reasons. Is it stupid? Not exactly, I don't think it is. Stupidity usually is tied to fuzzy thinking, at least in my mind. The people who crafted Helms-Burton and the embargo have lots and lots of data on its effect and could make reasonable inferences. They're not stupid. I think they're willfully ignoring the evidence for perceived political benefits in Florida and with their "conservative" supporters. Similarly, I don't think MS arguing against their being constrained by anti-trust laws is "stupid" - they know exactly what they're doing... Castro will remain in power as long as he is alive and has enough popular support. The damage Cuban economy suffers under the US embargo has little to do with that - and may in fact help increase his support. The embargo, as structured now, is counter-productive, IMO. It doesn't help our long-term interests in Cuba. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #6,444 by addison 8/23/01 11:35:59 AM Reply	Re: Please draw your inferences more carefully. I didn't call Helms-Burton an "arbitrary, stupid law" in my post. I didn't express any opinion about it, but rather gave a too brief summary of my understanding of what it was. I said he was "a thorn in the side of those attempting to have a reasonable foreign policy, IMHO." Which would indicate to me that you don't find it "reasonable". Sorry if you didn't like that inference, I still get the same one. But I'll agree you didn't use those words (I was talking about more than just you, and using yours as an example). My apologies for any misunderstanding. Castro will remain in power as long as he is alive and has enough popular support. The damage Cuban economy suffers under the US embargo has little to do with that - and may in fact help increase his support. The embargo, as structured now, is counter-productive, IMO. Those are 2 seperate issues. "Popular support" won't change, if there's not a reason to. (And getting shot for disagreeing/critizing Castro is a good reason not to make waves). The embargo might very well be counter-productive. I can't say that its not. But I'm not sure lifting it helps the Cuban people. Lifting it, allowing the money Cuba needs to keep things afloat in - that won't decrease Castro's support, it will increase it, and give Castro that much more control over the doling out of it, and where it goes. I can see that as a possibility. Quite likely, anyway. Trying to craft a plan that wouldn't increase Castro's power is difficult. Helms-Burton has certainly hurt Castro's power base (the popular support you mentioned). There's a presumption in dealing with Cuba, that as soon as Castro is gone, the problem is solved. And I don't know why that is. (the Cuban exiles are really bad about it). Nothing shows me that magically Cuba will change into a democratic Shangri-La. Predicating everything on Castro is a mistake, IMO. I presume that someone will take over the dictatorial reins when he steps down/dies. (Don't forget, Cuba has never been a democracy) Perhaps someone without the Charisma, and needing even more ruthless measures to keep "popular support?" I'm not certain as to the best way to deal with that. If there could be honest negotiation with Cuba, and open the barriers, I'd agree with you. But Cuba isn't allowing outside investment that will destabilize, or cause disruption, but that reinforces the government control. So I'm still undecided on Helms-Burton, and the Embargo.... and not sure that its "unreasonable". Addison
Post #6,548 by boxley 8/23/01 8:53:42 PM Reply	Agree about after Castro It will not change overnite and all the exiles will do is piss off the people who stayed if they go bull headed and rush over to take charge. The revolution has been there for 40 yrs it will change but not overnight except by extreme violence. I really hope that doesnt happen. That is why in my opinion we have to make nice with castro now before he dies so any new leader will have one less piece of outside issues to blame. thanx, bill Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves. Chuck Palahniuk
Post #6,792 by CRConrad 8/27/01 11:38:11 AM Reply	Wrong. Addison writes: If there could be honest negotiation with Cuba, and open the barriers, I'd agree with you. But Cuba isn't allowing outside investment that will destabilize, or cause disruption, but that reinforces the government control. Yes, Cuba is too allowing outside investment! That's what the Helms-Burton Act is all about, remember? Penalizing third-country companies, or third-countries as a whole for all I know, for... wait for it... yes, exactly: Investing in Cuba. From what I hear, most of their economy runs on foreign currencies from the "Intourist"-style "special economic zones" (i.e, the grounds around big European- (and Japanese-, etc?) -owned hotel complexes) already. Which, ironically, would again seem to be turning Cubans into a people of busboys, waiters, pimps and hookers to "the white man"... Sure, that may be what some old Americans, and a lot of those idiotic kid-napper wannabe "exile Cubans" (i.e, Hispanic-descended South Floridians) want -- but they better hope the inevitable resentment be directed specifically at the "new Elite" Europeans, then. Personally, I believe they won't be so bloody petit-maitre about the details, but let you Merkins taste a good share of their frustration at this neo-colonolialism, too. (Which would be doubly ironic, seeing as how, thanks to the Helms-Burton Act, you're innocent this time around -- for once!) So you better hope American money gets in there pretty fast after Fidel puts away the spoon for good, and that they do it more humbly than the Big Eurobucks are doing right now, so as to help defuse such tensions. And won't that (Merkin Capital having to be -- or at least act -- more humble than us YourPeons, that is) be triply ironic? Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #6,794 by a6l6e6x 8/27/01 11:47:15 AM Reply	Re: Wrong. You may or maybe not be aware of a very large flow of US dollars from Cuban Americans to their relatives in Cuba. Ironically, that's one of the things "propping up" Fidel. Alex Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel. -- Anne Frank
Post #6,796 by pwhysall 8/27/01 11:56:47 AM Reply	CRC == GWB? "...frustration at this neo-colonolialism..." Have they ever been seen in the same room? No? I rest my case. :-) -- Peter Shill For Hire
Post #6,802 by addison 8/27/01 12:19:21 PM Reply	No, CRC. And you even quoted the important disclaimer. *But Cuba isn't allowing outside investment that will destabilize, or cause disruption, but that reinforces the government control.* Yes, Cuba is too* allowing outside investment! That's what the Helms-Burton Act is all about, remember?* Read the rest of the sentance. The important part - that would destabilize, or cause disruption. The outside investment that is being allowed is what the government allows - which will increase the governmental control. (Which one of the articles linked to in here referenced, as well). Sure, that may be what some old Americans, and a lot of those idiotic kid-napper wannabe "exile Cubans" (i.e, Hispanic-descended South Floridians) Kidnapper? I'm unaware of any kidnappings in the recent past, other than a couple of kids abducted TO Cuba. If you're referring to the well-noted case of Elian, wasn't kidnapping (by the Cubans in this country). But I suppose that anybody who disagrees with CRC is just an idiot. It was a custody battle, and the correct side won legistlatively, even if it probably wasn't the morally correct thing to do. Addison
Post #6,845 by Ashton 8/27/01 4:09:25 PM Reply	Umm 'not morally correct' to return kid to father? Social engineering for God&Country? Better to be a 3rd-world orphan (albeit Famous Orphan\ufffd) in Murica than, reside with own father? Or did you mean ~ first, have Murican investigators determine the father's past relationship with mother + before + since their separation; examine the interior of his hovel and see if it matches 'moral' standards for the raising of cheeldrun and.. Then! let kid go home? maybe? Are all those cheeldrun somehow surviving in non-Murican-oriented Cuba: also living with immoral parents, say? - parents corrupting their kids by teaching them that Their system is better than Our system? Is than enough of an offense to make it: an 'immoral' act - to send a kid to such a place? Izzat where you're heading? Sheesh, Addison - when ya sprinkle in blab-words like Freedom, Truth and er moral, the flood-gates are open for any personal cockamamie religious, areligious, fascist or Repo definition of moral. Doesn't this make it now a pretty useless word? - at least where, something other than visceral emotional - response is sought, that is (?) Ashton

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