It sounded like what he needed.

Post #63,098 by bepatient 11/15/02 4:11:00 PM Reply	It sounded like what he needed. He didn't ask for pretty or maintainable. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,099 by mmoffitt 11/15/02 4:12:47 PM Reply	Understood. It's just...well,... seeing Access bound forms actually recommended caused me to become faint... ;0)
Post #63,118 by CRConrad 11/15/02 4:48:48 PM Reply	Not knowing Access all that well... ...since I haven't used it for anything beyond toy projects (and even those done in VB3 rather than Access proper, IIRC) -- nor anything beyond version 2 or 3 or so -- I must ask: What's so especially horrible about "Access bound forms"? At the risk of sounding like -- ahem -- Bryce, wouldn't you actually want your "small or mid-size business custom applications" to be "forms" (i.e, custom input/editing windows) that are more or less "bound" (in the sense of having a corresponding input/editing widget for [i.e, at least ultimately somehow related to] each particular field in some particular table) to a database/table? In other words: Is this just another expression of your general aversion for "bound controls", Mike -- or, is it that Access does some excessively weird mangling of even that basic concept? Just wondering Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #63,193 by static 11/16/02 5:52:49 AM Reply	The problem with Access. ... is thinking it's a full blown development environment. It's not quite. Plus good database design is fundamentally Hard and I've not seen Access make that any easier. (I rather doubt it possibly could.) These two can lead to some truly byzantine "applications". Wade. "Ah. One of the difficult questions."
Post #63,259 by tseliot 11/16/02 4:20:28 PM Reply	nutshell: Access expects denormalization. Anything "more complicated" (which, to the experienced developer, is actually less complicated), doesn't fit built-with-a-wizard-cut-n-paste forms. Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #63,266 by mmoffitt 11/16/02 5:07:07 PM 11/16/02 5:11:06 PM Reply	Access has some "special features" I'm not talking about what you and I have discussed at length. ;-) Access has some odd behavior if you use its "bound forms" for anything non-trivial. In Access, the form itself is bound to a table (or an "updatable query) and Access itself decides when the row is inserted, if it's inserted and on every third full moon (as best I can tell) if it is inserted properly. With bound forms you have VERY limited ability to control when the rows are written or when to bail on an insert (indeed in many cases you CANNOT stop a write even if you try to). And it is VERY cheesy. The built-in Access menus to mangle data can be turned off, but in many cases aren't. And then novices can do stuff like "docmd.MenuItem.Delete" in the wrong places - worse if done through wizards which produce code that would make you whince even harder than you already do looking at VB code. I could go on from now until I die, but I'll give you better specifics only if you're interested. I don't like to think about this very much ;-) In sum, Access makes it appear easy to do a database front end, but if you don't know how it really works, you can get your self in jail very easily. Edited by mmoffitt Nov. 16, 2002, 05:11:06 PM EST Expand All History
Post #63,280 by CRConrad 11/16/02 6:22:21 PM Reply	Thanks, that's quite enough. On that other thing, though... ...I'll hafta get back at ya, 'coz I don't think we quite finished that. Later, though. :-) Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]

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