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New Excuse me, but...
When was the last time an American company's assets were siezed bt the Cuban Government? 50 years ago? And you're still pining over that?

C'mon, get OVER it, awready!

50 year-old assets would be of VERY limited use today (except, of course, if you're talking about brandy, or cognac, or something like that... ;-) ).

jb4
Resistance is not futile...)
New The only reason embargo is in place US Sugar Company
sure the exiles are load but the US Sugar Company got 18 million in subsidies last yer and put a lot of cash into the pols pockets on a regular basis.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Not only...
The Bacardi family in exile very much wants to get its hands on its old Rum distillaries that Castro took over a few decades ago. They are looking to a post-Castro day when they can reclaim them. They have a lot of money, which they feed into politics, especially in lending financial support to the Cuban exiles in Florida, which in turn gives them political clout.

There was a bill passed a few years that barred companies from selling stuff from Cuba in the US. This was primarily targetted at the Cuban rum company, and their European distribution partner, from selling Cuban rum in the US. This bill was heavily pushed by the Bacardis
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New You're excused.
When was the last time an American company's assets were siezed bt the Cuban Government? 50 years ago? And you're still pining over that?

I suggest you talk to the companies who had their property taken from them.

And yes, some of it is still very viable. Quite a lot was valuble real estate, as well.

50 year-old assets would be of VERY limited use today

Depends what they are.

Several canadian companies ran afoul of Helms-Burton because they were being hired to recondition/repair seized US property.

And Rum is what you're thinking about. And Cuba is talking about starting to export Rum - mainly from the seized assets of (I forget the name of the company, now, NPR was talking about it the other day).

But it was for those cases that Helms-Burton was enacted, and I can see some reason there for it.

(The (and I'm surprised nobody's mentioned it) irony notwithstanding).

Addison
New Those poor companies...
You can jolly-well bet that the shareholders of those poor, downtrodden, besieged, victimized, multinational corporations have already soaked their shareholders for...er, "depreciated their assets"...fully for that siezed land, buildings, etc. many times over.

"Cost of doing business"

(And, no, I was talking about brandy or cognac. 50 year-old cognac has some value; 50 year-old rum doesn't [except, perhaps, as a curiosity].)
jb4
Resistance is not futile...)
New I'm not entirely sure where to start.
shareholders of those poor, downtrodden, besieged, victimized, multinational corporations have already soaked their shareholders

The shareholders soaked the shareholders?

Somehow I think you were typing too fast there.

Secondly, probably the US taxpayers helped to subsidize that - the loss. So we all got soaked.

Which brings us right back to the reason for Helms-Burton - to attempt to prevent other countries, and companies in them, from taking advantage of the loss of the US taxpayers.

poor, downtrodden, besieged, victimized, multinational corporations

I think that was the language Castro used when he seized it.

Its also the same "logic" that permits shoplifters to steal from big stores. "Oh, they rip us off, so I'll rip them off".

But that was the exact thought process used when the assets were seized. When other companies in other countries decided "Hey, we can make some quick bucks" - Helms/Burton was passed to say "fine, but don't expect to come into the US again". Because US companies were prevented from using the (ill gotten gains) to make a quick buck. (As well as encouraging, in a longer-term sense - in the same vein as noting the "short term" view of most companies - that dealing with the dictatorship in Cuba is a Bad Idea.)

The actual effect of Helms/Burton is probably negative, actually. But that doesn't stop/change the reasoning for it..... and your sarcasm actually is totally misplaced, as a result.

Addison


New many other countries in the world
have nationalized their industry to the detriment of American Corporations to both the country's detriment and to ours. I think that you will have to admit that Cuba is a special case. Even Viet Nam who we were recently at police action with we allow trade and are considering favored nation status. Only North Korea who we are in a state of cease fire only and Cuba who we never have entered hostilities directly since the spanish American war. North Korea is much different than Cuba. You dont have North Koreans voluntarily return because they like North Korea better. That does happen with Cubans. My brother in law lasted six months here and declared Cuba a much better place to live and went back. The reasons for stopping the embargo greatly outnumber the reasons to continue it. The only reason the embargo is still on is big sugar, not the bitter old farts in miami, they lost all sympathy during the Elian horsecrap. Bacardi the distiller whose factories were nationalized dont give a crap any more, the only other big money that was lost was mob money sugar and banana growers. They are the ones who keep the preasure on. I think if America wished to clean up the everglades they should pay absolutly top dollar for the cane fields and let them flood naturally, this will also remove any preasure to keep the embargo going.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New One other thought...
...what about all those countries that borrowed large amounts of money from American concerns, while those countries were under the control of despots and dictators? American loan sharks knew that the money was not being used to improve the infrastructure of the countries in question - but kept the money flowing anyways, lining the pockets of said despots, allowing them to stay in power longer.

Now in many of those countries, the debt load is crippling, the despots (and the money) is long gone, yet we expect those countries to pay back the bills that the crooks (often supported by us) ran up. Where's the Helms-Burton to help with that situation?

Face it, the Helms-Burton act is sour whine. It fails my .sig - it is a monstrous act, designed to penalize one group for one crime, while sweeping under the mat crimes committed by those who seek to enforce that law in the first place. By the time Helms worked on that bill, he had become that which he sought to fight in the first place - a monster.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Re: many other countries in the world
have nationalized their industry to the detriment of American Corporations to both the country's detriment and to ours.

Yep.

One also might make the case that the whole of the US was similarly "appropriated". (Something I was waiting for someone to point out)

I think that you will have to admit that Cuba is a special case.

Yep.

Cuba who we never have entered hostilities directly since the spanish American war.

Hrm. What was that about the Pay Of Bigs?

Something like that.

That does happen with Cubans.

Bill, if I meet you down in Florida - don't say anything like that around my Cuban relatives. Please. :)

The reasons for stopping the embargo greatly outnumber the reasons to continue it. The only reason the embargo is still on is big sugar, not the bitter old farts in miami, they lost all sympathy during the Elian horsecrap.

That they might. But the concern is propping up Castro. And its not an inconsiderable one - Cuba in its heyday was taking $1M USD in USSR support. Now that that's gone, the US doesn't want to subsidize Castro, to replace the USSR.

Bacardi the distiller whose factories were nationalized dont give a crap any more,

Not quite what they were saying the other day...

They are the ones who keep the preasure on.

Actually, its more the ex-Cubans. They've got a ton more political muscle than you're giving them credit for...

But I'm just pointing out that Helms Burton isn't quite the arbitrary, stupid law as its usually described (see the first post). It might be a better idea to open everything up, but OTOH, what if that gives Castro the resources to keep Cuba under his heel?

Addison
New bay of pigs was not American Military Units
going full force it was cubans, american friends, cia operatives and they were totaslly screwed by Kennedy who failed the no shit test and cancelled promised air support.
The fastest way to topple Castro is to flood the country with cheap american goods, cheap credit and commodities and funding people 2 rungs under him with goodwill cash and no strings. Cuba may go the way of Mexico and the PRI but may also splinter. The idea of the revolution is not nescessarily bad, prolly better than Haiti and Guatamala worse than Belize and Costa Rica but the opening of American trade without strings will make a large Island 90 miles to the south a good partner in the future. Keeping the embargo when the rest of the world decries it makes a hardworking group of people bitter towards us.
Sorry your relatives wont like mine, but thats ok I dont like mine either, the little fsck left in the middle of the night after cleaning my sister out and gets an ass whupping if I ever meet him BUT it cant be that bad if he prefered there better than here and he did have a green card. That was why when Elian's dad wanted to take him back I beleived him cause I have seen and met others who beleived in the revolution no matter how irrelevant it is in todays world.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Semantic difference.
Trained by the US, and backed by the US, I'll call that a "US" attack.

The fastest way to topple Castro is to flood the country with cheap american goods, cheap credit and commodities and funding people 2 rungs under him with goodwill cash and no strings.

Which is exactly why Castro won't let that happen.

Revoking Helms-Burton doesn't change the control that Cuban government will have over everything.

Keeping the embargo when the rest of the world decries it makes a hardworking group of people bitter towards us.

Possibly. But lifting it wouldn't change things for them, there would just have to be another excuse. (In fact, that's a large part of the best reason FOR lifting it, then what would Castro blame the woes on?)

BUT it cant be that bad if he prefered there better than here and he did have a green card.

I don't know the circumstances, but all the Cubans I know who have gone to visit relatives on the Island shudder when they talk about it.

Oh, and lets not forget the ones who come to the Cuban doctor in the family, and beg her to prescribe various drugs (one for chemotherapy) - because the Cuban government and its National Health Care Plan won't let their relatives have what they need (but will allow other people to send in drugs. (which requires a prescription in the US))).

I dunno there Bill. Don't sound too great to me.

Of course, if I could just sit on the beach all day and fish, well, maybe.

Addison
New waal he is a lifeguard on the beach and is "connected"
lots of cohiba's fall off of trucks into his family's hands. Ma was telling me how tight it is but he doesnt have to be responsible for anything Unca Fidel takes care of it. Fish of the beach for protein, black market cigars for beef and other goodies.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Please draw your inferences more carefully.
Hi Addison,

But I'm just pointing out that Helms Burton isn't quite the arbitrary, stupid law as its usually described (see the first post). It might be a better idea to open everything up, but OTOH, what if that gives Castro the resources to keep Cuba under his heel?

I didn't call Helms-Burton an "arbitrary, stupid law" in my post. I didn't express any opinion about it, but rather gave a too brief summary of my understanding of what it was. I said he was "a thorn in the side of those attempting to have a reasonable foreign policy, IMHO."

A case could be made for the embargo in 1960, and maybe even up through the late '80s when Cuba was supporting revolutionaries in Angola and Central America. I don't know if a strong case could be made, but a case could certainly be made. The embargo was put in place [link|http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/cmcchron1.html|August 28, 1960] apparently in response to Cuba and the USSR starting diplomatic relations, the US refusing Cuban sugar exports and the USSR taking it, etc., etc. Helms-Burton became law in March 1996.

I don't believe a case can be made for continuing the embargo and Helms-Burton now.

Do I think it's an arbitrary law? No, I don't. It was constructed for very specific reasons. Is it stupid? Not exactly, I don't think it is. Stupidity usually is tied to fuzzy thinking, at least in my mind. The people who crafted Helms-Burton and the embargo have lots and lots of data on its effect and could make reasonable inferences. They're not stupid. I think they're willfully ignoring the evidence for perceived political benefits in Florida and with their "conservative" supporters. Similarly, I don't think MS arguing against their being constrained by anti-trust laws is "stupid" - they know exactly what they're doing...

Castro will remain in power as long as he is alive and has enough popular support. The damage Cuban economy suffers under the US embargo has little to do with that - and may in fact help increase his support. The embargo, as structured now, is counter-productive, IMO. It doesn't help our long-term interests in Cuba.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: Please draw your inferences more carefully.
I didn't call Helms-Burton an "arbitrary, stupid law" in my post. I didn't express any opinion about it, but rather gave a too brief summary of my understanding of what it was. I said he was "a thorn in the side of those attempting to have a reasonable foreign policy, IMHO."

Which would indicate to me that you don't find it "reasonable".

Sorry if you didn't like that inference, I still get the same one. But I'll agree you didn't use those words (I was talking about more than just you, and using yours as an example). My apologies for any misunderstanding.

Castro will remain in power as long as he is alive and has enough popular support. The damage Cuban economy suffers under the US embargo has little to do with that - and may in fact help increase his support. The embargo, as structured now, is counter-productive, IMO.

Those are 2 seperate issues. "Popular support" won't change, if there's not a reason to. (And getting shot for disagreeing/critizing Castro is a good reason not to make waves).

The embargo might very well be counter-productive. I can't say that its not. But I'm not sure lifting it helps the Cuban people.

Lifting it, allowing the money Cuba needs to keep things afloat in - that won't *decrease* Castro's support, it will increase it, and give Castro that much more control over the doling out of it, and where it goes.

I can see that as a possibility. Quite likely, anyway.

Trying to craft a plan that wouldn't increase Castro's power is difficult. Helms-Burton has certainly hurt Castro's power base (the popular support you mentioned).

There's a presumption in dealing with Cuba, that as soon as Castro is gone, the problem is solved. And I don't know why that is. (the Cuban exiles are really bad about it). Nothing shows me that magically Cuba will change into a democratic Shangri-La. Predicating everything on Castro is a mistake, IMO. I presume that someone will take over the dictatorial reins when he steps down/dies. (Don't forget, Cuba has never been a democracy)

Perhaps someone without the Charisma, and needing even more ruthless measures to keep "popular support?"

I'm not certain as to the best way to deal with that.

If there could be honest negotiation with Cuba, and open the barriers, I'd agree with you. But Cuba isn't allowing outside investment that will destabilize, or cause disruption, but that reinforces the government control.

So I'm still undecided on Helms-Burton, and the Embargo.... and not sure that its "unreasonable".

Addison
New Agree about after Castro
It will not change overnite and all the exiles will do is piss off the people who stayed if they go bull headed and rush over to take charge. The revolution has been there for 40 yrs it will change but not overnight except by extreme violence. I really hope that doesnt happen. That is why in my opinion we have to make nice with castro now before he dies so any new leader will have one less piece of outside issues to blame.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Wrong.
Addison writes:
If there could be honest negotiation with Cuba, and open the barriers, I'd agree with you. But Cuba isn't allowing outside investment that will destabilize, or cause disruption, but that reinforces the government control.
Yes, Cuba *is too* allowing outside investment! That's what the Helms-Burton Act is all about, remember?

Penalizing third-country companies, or third-countries as a whole for all I know, for... wait for it... yes, exactly: Investing in Cuba.

From what I hear, most of their economy runs on foreign currencies from the "Intourist"-style "special economic zones" (i.e, the grounds around big European- (and Japanese-, etc?) -owned hotel complexes) already.

Which, ironically, would *again* seem to be turning Cubans into a people of busboys, waiters, pimps and hookers to "the white man"... Sure, that may be what some old Americans, and a lot of those idiotic kid-napper wannabe "exile Cubans" (i.e, Hispanic-descended South Floridians) want -- but they better hope the inevitable resentment be directed specifically at the "new Elite" Europeans, then.

Personally, I believe they won't be so bloody petit-maitre about the details, but let you Merkins taste a good share of their frustration at this neo-colonolialism, too. (Which would be doubly ironic, seeing as how, thanks to the Helms-Burton Act, you're innocent this time around -- for *once*!)

So you better hope American money gets in there pretty fast after Fidel puts away the spoon for good, and that they do it *more humbly* than the Big Eurobucks are doing right now, so as to help defuse such tensions. And won't *that* (Merkin Capital having to be -- or at least act -- more humble than us YourPeons, that is) be triply ironic?
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New Re: Wrong.
You may or maybe not be aware of a very large flow of US dollars from Cuban Americans to their relatives in Cuba. Ironically, that's one of the things "propping up" Fidel.
Alex

Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel.
-- Anne Frank
New CRC == GWB?
"...frustration at this neo-colonolialism..."

Have they ever been seen in the same room? No? I rest my case.

:-)
--
Peter
Shill For Hire
New No, CRC. And you even quoted the important disclaimer.
But Cuba isn't allowing outside investment that will destabilize, or cause disruption, but that reinforces the government control.

Yes, Cuba *is too* allowing outside investment! That's what the Helms-Burton Act is all about, remember?

Read the *rest of the sentance*. The important part - that would destabilize, or cause disruption.

The outside investment that is being allowed is what the government allows - which will increase the governmental control.

(Which one of the articles linked to in here referenced, as well).

Sure, that may be what some old Americans, and a lot of those idiotic kid-napper wannabe "exile Cubans" (i.e, Hispanic-descended South Floridians)

Kidnapper? I'm unaware of any kidnappings in the recent past, other than a couple of kids abducted TO Cuba.

If you're referring to the well-noted case of Elian, wasn't kidnapping (by the Cubans in this country). But I suppose that anybody who disagrees with CRC is just an idiot. It was a custody battle, and the correct side won legistlatively, even if it probably wasn't the morally correct thing to do.


Addison


New Umm 'not morally correct' to return kid to father?
Social engineering for God&Country? Better to be a 3rd-world orphan (albeit Famous Orphan\ufffd) in Murica than, reside with own father?

Or did you mean ~ first, have Murican investigators determine the father's past relationship with mother + before + since their separation; examine the interior of his hovel and see if it matches 'moral' standards for the raising of cheeldrun and.. Then! let kid go home? maybe?

Are all those cheeldrun somehow surviving in non-Murican-oriented Cuba: also living with immoral parents, say? - parents corrupting their kids by teaching them that Their system is better than Our system? Is than enough of an offense to make it: an 'immoral' act - to send a kid to such a place? Izzat where you're heading?

Sheesh, Addison - when ya sprinkle in blab-words like Freedom, Truth and er moral, the flood-gates are open for any personal cockamamie religious, areligious, fascist or Repo definition of

moral. Doesn't this make it now a pretty useless word? - at least where, something other than visceral emotional - response is sought, that is (?)


Ashton
New Wrong
Bacardi the distiller whose factories were nationalized dont give a crap any more

Bacardi very much till cares. They put a lot of pressure behind Helms-Burton and a lot of money into Florida politics. They are working hard behind the scenes to get international law in their favor so that they can reclaim their distillaries. The Bacardi family is still well remembered and respected in Santiago, Cuba and they are counting on that.

Cuba has worked a distribution deal with a European distributer to sell Cuban rum ("Havana Club" is the brand name, I think) in Europe; Bacardi worked hard on Helms-Burton to block that rum from being sold in the US. Havana Club is made in old Bacardi plants and that really annoys the Bacardis
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New Start maybe with.. the US mobster-run whorehouses,
- finding appropriate work for certain of the 'er locals.. American-style work - while setting up their syndicates for numbers, and - the stuff of Vegas before there Was a Vegas.

Maybe do a lateral arabesque and ask how it is the US de-elected the Queen of Hawaii and stole all That territory, while checking out the history of our 'neighbors' -- and you want sympathy for a few er M$-grade Corporate exploiters of Cuba, after they'd already plundered it in the same style as Central and So. America?

Could you be upset that this particular banana republic decided it'd rather not continue to be Our banana republic?
I suggest that it is the Murican Ego which lies behind the draconian inhumane and inane 'special treatment' of Cuba; nothing to do with International law (which didn't exist to protect Cuba or other locals - from our corruption via seed money and then overt political manipulation for cash).

(UN still cannot stop us - none of the countries actually surrender autonomy, especially the right to exploit weaker ones. It's all about 'face', but not penalties anyone could enforce)

But I can see why you and Jesse would stand shoulder to shoulder on shorting the UN - it does after-all, stand (well, in principle!) somewhat in the way of US doing our Bizness as Usual re poorer countries - at least those from whom we want something:

usually cheap labor to ship off their natural resources to us, for processing here - and reselling back at Our prices. Umm there's a word for that process: something to do with Empires and such? That was earlier, of course. All finished sorta.

The new imperialism is more about keeping the locals in-line for exploitation at miniscule wages: by US-bribed local overseers. As with Walmart - yup old Sam can browbeat even the higher levels of governments there; for lower and lower mfg. costs - because they are the poorest of all - and have been run for many years by equally despicable locals / who learned watching US tactics.

That Freedom-loving US 'friend' Bautista - if those awful Cubans had just left him alone... Havana could look like LA today! Why.. there could be Pepsi Signs and C&H Sugar signs all over those ugly palm-studded present-day streets, today deprived of the signs of Murican Progress\ufffd. And they could each own a Glock too - to protect selves from Fellow Cubans, who'd naturally enough: also be acting just like Muricans.

Those *poor* Cubans! Imagine what they have missed! by opting out of our Pan-American largesse for all .. these .. years. They coulda been another Nicaragua (with Ronnie's or Bushie's help) or Colombia! (with the DEA's help and others).

Or another Haiti - (gosh we didn't seem to find PapaDoc Duvallier NEARLY as offensive as that nasty ol' Castro - even paid his medical bills: he was (another) er bulwark against Communism Near Our Shores\ufffd)

You're really gonna miss Jesse, now aren't you?



Ashton
New Ah so...
Personally, I think folks are correct when they say that when Castro is gone it won't take long to normalize relations.

As to some of the other points... one thing I seldom see mentioned is that in the Fifties, there were a lot of people in the United States who didn't particularly care for Fulgencio Bautista and/or the sugar companies. We didn't get a new car in 1958, and my mother was pretty hacked about it; Dad responded to a plea for support instead.

I well remember sitting in front of the TV when the clip was played where Fidel declared that he was a Communist, and had always been a Communist. We were visiting friends in Stephenville, and the look Dad and Jimmy exchanged on hearing that had to be seen to be believed.

That's where Jesse Helms's basic support has always come from: people, mainly in the South, who supported Castro against the vile bastards who were running the country -- and felt flatly betrayed when the Bearded One declared for the Other Side, who were at that time quite truthfully regarded as being Out to Get Us.

Most of those folks are old, now, as Jesse is, and when they're gone, the only support the anti-Castro people will have is from the likes of Bacardi. When Fidel finally dies, too, there'll be no object to focus on. Reasonably normal relations will follow fairly quickly (a couple of years, minimum; definitely not overnight).

From the business point of view, yes, many other countries have nationalized U.S. corporations' assets and not been penalized as Cuba has. OTOH none of them has done so as completely and sweepingly as Cuba did. The United States doesn't automatically compensate companies who've been seized, but the end result is the same as if they had -- U.S. taxpayers wind up paying. I personally have precisely zero sympathy for the sugar companies, who were running their operations with what amounted to slave labor; but there were a number of corporations who were just doing maquiladora-type things, and Bacardi, despite its legal location here, is and has always been and Islands company. They got gutted simply because of a legal fiction about where they were incorporated, and are rightfully sore about it. If Castro had satisfied himself with seizing the sugar companies and the land they owned, and the assets of Bautista and his cronies, and left the rest alone... lots of people, including Dad and his friends, would've snorted and said, "Yay! Go for it!" And that would probably have included Jesse Helms.

There is no way the Cuban Revolution can continue absent Castro. There simply aren't any charismatic people around to take over, and the ones who are publicly known are regarded as precisely what they are -- apparatchiks. Socialism is, in its final analysis, just feudalism with the serial numbers filed off; regardless of official titles, the man is and has always been Fidel I Castro, Prince of Cuba, Scourge of the Windward Passage, and Protector of the Meek. Unfortunately he doesn't have a son to invest with primogeniture, and there isn't any other way for him to pass the power he holds. So when Castro dies, there will be a period of great turbulence. The one thing we here in the U.S. need to do when that happens is to try hard to keep the South Florida Cuban exiles from pulling the same trick the West Germans did when the wall came down. If we get a flood of people heading over to explain to the poor benighted Cubans that they've been doing it wrong for forty years and their betters will be happy to take over and show them the right way... it could get nasty.

And Ashton -- in many ways I share some of your attitudes, but don't let your bitterness get the better of you. Our Good Friends the Canadians, who consider it fun and appropriate to tweak the eagle's tail whenever possible, report to me that the real live Cubans are anxious, even avid, to take up the professions of waiter and the like for the sizeable resorts and playgrounds established by European countries for tourism in Cuba, largely by Our Better Friends the Associates of Michael Merlin. Whether the actual result is pretty or not, people do tend for some reason to gravitate to where they can actually make money, eat, live in reasonable housing, and other unreasonable, resource-confusing things.
Regards,
Ric
New Nice analysis of the earlier hostility..
Pity that young Fedelito lacked the savoire faire to speak the language of the men in white gloves, who dance around, The Green Table, my fav stage show / ballet sans dialogue - about the old men sending the young ones off to die for.. er any momentary unpleasantness at the Table.

He could as well have, pronounced himself a Progressive Laissez-faire Compassionate Capitalist - the kinds of BS meaningless phrases so beloved of Murican politicos (and so effective! as they can mean - like the Red Queen - whatever you Want them to mean, and change each week).

Instead he called that spade a er Spade - yet.. there Really Wasn't a Spade!. Like so many revolutionaries - necessarily young ones - he too missed the Point: You can't Have 'Communism' within a culture besotted with say, acquiring endless amounts of things and.. owning them all personally (!) D'Oh. Especially not when - this affliction is the major source of comfort, prized above all else! in 'life'.

Cubans wanted what Bautista and ilk then had much too much of; not some 'different way of coexisting on an island paradise' - via a different social contract. Too heavy stuff, too early - and for an audience with little opportunity for academic philosophizing. Yet only the most hate-crazed can deny that his aim was for.. somehow preventing the Capitalism run-amok of Murican robber barons - that periodic process we live with while averting our eyes. As for the Miami Cubans... they'll die of apoplexy soon enough.

Guess that C-word really Did piss of Jesse and his folk... (ironic for their love of the N-word) - 'enemy of my enemy' doggerel won. Again, predictably: as with all the other folks we demonized for wanting control by an entity which isn't Corporate. And especially not - Murican Corporate.

Not bitter re Murican fairy tales; just can no longer bear the hyopcritical pretense that they Aren't 'fairy stories'! and we (really!) Are: the One Way towards blissful existence on what remains of the planet.

(Must admit that our antics with Puritanism AND Playboy are always good for comic relief though, except maybe when.. the hate preachers start broadcasting which group is slated for removal this year. Bathos. :(

Maybe none of the more interesting social 'contracts' can occur until all Holy Books\ufffd everywhere are burned, in one majestic ceremony dwarfing, Kristallnacht [?]

People collectively aren't yet mature enough Not-to coopt the more subtle parables of a Jesus or Other, next load on lots of really shitty homo-sap stuff: and mix 'em all up, for power and profit. It's not the Economy, Stupid - it's The Robes!



Cackle,

Ashton
House Murican Activities Committee,
Historian Emeritus
New He does have a younger brother, doesn't he?
I remember an article in which it was said his younger brother (apparently the only person in Cuba Fidel really trusts) being named the heir apparent.

He runs the government security forces - and is not very well liked - but troops can keep him in control for a while, I'd say.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
     Helms to retire from Senate. Elizabeth Dole to replace him? - (Another Scott) - (27)
         uh, who's fault is that? -NT - (boxley)
         Re: Helms to retire from Senate. Elizabeth Dole to replace - (addison) - (25)
             Excuse me, but... - (jb4) - (24)
                 The only reason embargo is in place US Sugar Company - (boxley) - (1)
                     Not only... - (Fearless Freep)
                 You're excused. - (addison) - (21)
                     Those poor companies... - (jb4) - (20)
                         I'm not entirely sure where to start. - (addison) - (19)
                             many other countries in the world - (boxley) - (14)
                                 One other thought... - (inthane-chan)
                                 Re: many other countries in the world - (addison) - (11)
                                     bay of pigs was not American Military Units - (boxley) - (2)
                                         Semantic difference. - (addison) - (1)
                                             waal he is a lifeguard on the beach and is "connected" - (boxley)
                                     Please draw your inferences more carefully. - (Another Scott) - (7)
                                         Re: Please draw your inferences more carefully. - (addison) - (6)
                                             Agree about after Castro - (boxley)
                                             Wrong. - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                                 Re: Wrong. - (a6l6e6x)
                                                 CRC == GWB? - (pwhysall)
                                                 No, CRC. And you even quoted the important disclaimer. - (addison) - (1)
                                                     Umm 'not morally correct' to return kid to father? - (Ashton)
                                 Wrong - (Fearless Freep)
                             Start maybe with.. the US mobster-run whorehouses, - (Ashton) - (3)
                                 Ah so... - (Ric Locke) - (2)
                                     Nice analysis of the earlier hostility.. - (Ashton)
                                     He does have a younger brother, doesn't he? - (wharris2)

Zort.
290 ms