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New hard one to call, or not
[link|http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/idaho_hatecrime010816.html|earl ]
well he broke one rule, never go back for seconds but 5 years?
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New I'd say that's open and shut.
I may not like that word, but that's no cause to lock the guy up for 5 years. Community service, maybe, but you're still awfully close to 1st amendment issues. Jail? Hell no.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Huh?
"And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you" - Friedrich Nietzsche

I thought that was from Batman?
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New Huh^2?
Seriously?

Hell, Batman is a monster in some ways (loved that 4 part Dark Knight Returns graphic novel that came out in the late 80s IIRC - Batman as an old Geezer, going up against Superman one more time... Just to remind him that it's not his planet.) but this is a notion that is much older than the Bat...

[Edit: s/Night/Knight]
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Expand Edited by inthane-chan Aug. 17, 2001, 06:37:18 PM EDT
New Sorta :)
Seriously?

In one of the cartoons, Batman's having a moment of self doubt and is in the Batcave talking to Robin and he looks down into a cavern and says that if you look into the abyss long enough, the abyss looks back into you (Although he may have said "darkness" rather than "abyss", I don't remember the exact wording)
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New Makes sense.
And I don't know how much the modern era shows it, but the original comic (IIRC from the '30s) was much darker - Batman was almost as much a thug as the villians he fought against. After the Comic Code Crackdown, they had to clean things up, and IIRC that's where Robin came in.

Give me a "gritty" hero over Superman any day. Anybody can aspire to be Batman, but you might as well aspire to be Christ as Superman. A hero without flaws is not a human.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Re: Makes sense.
My guess is that if you read the books closely, a significant number of Batman's lines are directly cribbed from Nietzsche. The feel is very similar.

But then, Nietzsche is everywhere. Reading his stuff and then noticing how much influence he's had is quite disturbing. People who like Nietzsche scare me. And I'm one of them.
White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New ..I thought Nietzsche influenced "Superman", not "Batman" :)
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New I probably should read him.
Especially since I like that quote so much.

Nietzsche probably says some really controversial things - but to be honest, I don't know that Awareness can survive in the universe by continuing to treat anything with a certain commonality of DNA as human. The problem is, selecting the person who makes the division between those truly Aware and those who are not - and that is something that we cannot trust any man with, as can be seen in World War II.

Rather, it is the responsibility IMO of each individual to focus themselves to becoming the next stage...
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Well, the Dark Knight* Returns...
...was rather literate, for a comic.

(Every bit as "heavy" as "Watchmen".)

So yeah, I think he said "abyss".

Because he *was quoting Nietzsche*...



[*]: Knight, wasn't it, not Night?
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New Re: Well, the Dark Knight* Returns...
Whoops. Was that in that one?

It's been 10+ years since I read it. That and The Watchmen were definitely Cool Books.

The problem is, it's kinda like reading the Lord of the Rings, and then trying to read David Eddings. It turned me off to comic books.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Dunno.
Thane wonders:
Whoops. Was that in that one?
I just kind of assumed it was, 'coz I haven't read much else Batman in the last decade or two...

But then, the quote doesn't necessarily have to have been in any Batman I've read. (I *may* have got it elsewhere... :-)

But on the gripping hand, if *that* quote *was* in any Batman, then the Dark Knight is the logical candidate, right?
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New From the article, I'd say he picked the wrong lawyer.
Because this isn't a question of free speech - threats aren't covered. This is also not, by the usual definition, a hate crime - he didn't pick a victim by race. And there is nothing to suggest that he would have been any less hostile had a white guy been involved.

But among the many things the article doesn't get into, the one I'm curious about is the lawyer. Was there baggage from the earlier case? Was the lawyer going for a precedent? Ongoing conflicts with officials?

This one shouldn't be going to trial. The guy is guilty of a minor offense. If the prosecution and his lawyer do their jobs he will get a minor penalty on the "kick his ass" part of the outburst and forget the rest. The only way this goes any further is if somebody (and it could well be his lawyer) decides to make it a test case. If that happens, based on the article, he's screwed. He's guilty on "kick his ass" and technicaly he could get the 5 years for that alone.
White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New PC may triumph again
Jeez, while I don't call anyone names, it brings to mind the old saying: "sticks and stones may break your bones, but names will never harm you".

The law should be based on *actions*, not on thoughts or words. (Which is also why I disagree with "hate crime" legislation - for pete's sake, if you slash someone, how is that different if the victim is white, black, hispanic, or from Alpha Centauri?)
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
New Yes, actions matter most. But words matter too.
Hi,

The law should be based on *actions*, not on thoughts or words. (Which is also why I disagree with "hate crime" legislation - for pete's sake, if you slash someone, how is that different if the victim is white, black, hispanic, or from Alpha Centauri?)

That's generally the way I feel as well. What if someone is killed because they have an annoying speech characteristic rather than their skin color? Which characteristics should be included under hate legislation? People should be equal under the law.

But, I come back to things like the [link|http://www.magenta.nl/EyetoEye/contraste.html|Blue eye/Brown eye experiment]. Words matter. Indoctrination matters. The way people are taught to hate others matters.

[...]

"Who told you to sit down?" "Do I have to spell everything out for you, sit!" One participant of Jane Elliott's workshop walked out after one hour, another never returned from a quick trip to the bathroom'. Their blue eyes did them in. In Elliott's world brown eyed people form the majority and they have the power. Blueys are dumb, inferior, lazy and they steal. To emphasize their inferiority they have to wear a collar. For blueys the rules are always changing, at the mercy of the brown eyes. A blue eyed participant who walked out before attempts to get back in. Elliott is unrelenting, he's out. In the real world people of colour can't just step out. They don't have a choice. They can't take off their colour.

Get Elliott's kids. Elliott developed this behavioural exercise in 1968 after Martin Luther King was killed. As a school teacher in Riceville, Iowa she tried to explain the meaning of King's death to her all white students. Riceville was and is today a white, christian town with a population of a 1000 souls. And no racism according to them. Elliott devised the exercise -this is not a experiment she emphasizes- in which one day the brown eyed children are on top and the next day the blue eyed. "I choose a physical characteristic over which they had no control and attributed negative elements to this characteristic." Elliott choose eye colour because during the second world war eye colour was one of the ways for the nazi's to determine if someone was send to the gas chamber or not. Brown eyes could be fatal even if you had a beautiful German name. "I had no idea how it would work out. If I had known the enormous impact it had on my students and the community, I would not have done it." says Elliott. As a direct result of the success' of the exercise her four children were taunted, spit on and molested by their teachers, their classmates and the parents of their classmates. "From get the Elliott kids it became get the nigger-lover's kids" says Elliott.

Outsider Not only her children got it. The day after her appearance on the very popular Johnny Carson Show, the people in Riceville also decided not to buy from her father anymore. They feared black people would think that they all thought like her' and blacks would think life was good in Riceville and move over there in droves. Father Elliott went bankrupt. Of course this didn't go down very well in Jane Elliott's family. "My mother thought I'd gone crazy and asked me: can't you just stop with this nonsense? She has never forgiven me. My brothers, self-made millionaires and conservative Republicans wondered what the hell my problem was?". Her father, however, has never stopped her. In fact, it was his contradictory attitude that made Jane the odd one out in her family. "My father always said:'never put a stone on another man's path' or justice will never be disadvantageous to man' or a just cause is a good thing'. At the same time he wouldn't have his daughters marry a black man. I thought that wasn't right . I was crazy about my father. It's a shame he was so prejudiced".

Oppressed position. From 68 to 84 Elliott did Brown eyes, blue eyes' with schoolkids. She was surprised every time again, about how the mechanics worked. " I administered this exercise to a group of children with dyslexia. Brown eyed children, who couldn't really read or spell anything without stammering, suddenly could spell words they couldn't before. On the other hand, I had a very smart girl who could multiply very well. The moment she as a blue eyes came in a inferior position, she started to stammer and making mistakes doing her sums. And we had been doing the exercise for less than two hours!"

[...]


A few years ago I heard an NPR discussion show about reparations and discrimination law. Some guest on the show argued that only blacks and american indians should have special treatment under discrimination law due to their historical disadvantages in this country. He made a lot of sense to me. But the devil's in the details. And how could you exclude women (who are certainly underrepresented in many fields and certainly suffer from the "glass ceiling" and "the old boys network")? And gays certainly are unfairly discriminated against. Is there any fair way to make distinctions under the law (when "making the law is like making a sausage - if you love them you don't want to watch them being made...")?

So while I strongly disagree, at a gut level, with hate crime legislation, perhaps something needs to be done to more strongly discourage incitement, unfair discrimination, and hate and distrust between people. I don't know how you'd do it, though, without trampling on the First Amendment. :-(

Cheers,
Scott.
New human nature
whenever a group with distinquishing markings get in an advantageous position the first thing they do is consolidate by exclusion. Built in, reasoning is the only way to overcome the fear, but in the disadvantage zone, any overtures for inclusion is an immeadiate take advantage moment. You know it is not going to last so mine it for all it is worth. Again only reason can overcome inbred habits. We are a long way from becoming vulcans. If we recognise these traits and try to overcome them that is progress.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Hey, for that matter...
I'm being discriminated against!

I'm a 40-something geek who cant hit a curveball! I'll never get a $20MM/yr contract, nor will I ever get the chance to play in front of a full house at Wrigley Field!

What's Johnny Cochran's phone number?
jb4
Resistance is not futile...)
     hard one to call, or not - (boxley) - (16)
         I'd say that's open and shut. - (inthane-chan) - (11)
             Huh? - (Fearless Freep) - (9)
                 Huh^2? - (inthane-chan) - (8)
                     Sorta :) - (Fearless Freep) - (7)
                         Makes sense. - (inthane-chan) - (3)
                             Re: Makes sense. - (mhuber) - (2)
                                 ..I thought Nietzsche influenced "Superman", not "Batman" :) -NT - (Fearless Freep)
                                 I probably should read him. - (inthane-chan)
                         Well, the Dark Knight* Returns... - (CRConrad) - (2)
                             Re: Well, the Dark Knight* Returns... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                 Dunno. - (CRConrad)
             From the article, I'd say he picked the wrong lawyer. - (mhuber)
         PC may triumph again - (wharris2) - (3)
             Yes, actions matter most. But words matter too. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                 human nature - (boxley)
                 Hey, for that matter... - (jb4)

Oh good, just go the wrong way why don't you!
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