Post #5,382
8/16/01 2:51:37 AM
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Mideast Myths Exploded
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12316-2001Aug14.html|http://www.washingt...01Aug14.html]
Here are some relevant quotes
"The claim of Palestinian moral superiority ended when the world saw Palestinians cheer in the street a young man holding up hands red with the blood of an Israeli soldier beaten to death, or perhaps it was when Palestinians stomped two boys, one a U.S. citizen, to death in a cave, or perhaps it was some other moment of gross and gleeful murder.
What remained -- the left's final feeble resort -- was a claim of moral equivalency: The Palestinians might be engaged in terrible acts but so too were the Israelis. Both sides were killing; indeed, the Israelis, with their better arms and soldiers, had killed far more than had the Palestinians.
Now this too has gasped its last breath. It is not possible to pretend any more that there is anything like a moral equivalency at work in this conflict. The facts are indisputable.
One: The Palestinians are the aggressor; they started the conflict, and they purposely drive it forward with fresh killing on almost a daily basis. Two: The Palestinians regard this second intifada not as a sporadically violent protest movement but as a war, with the clear strategic aim of forcing a scared and emotionally exhausted Israel to surrender on terms that would threaten Israel's viability. Three: As a tactic in this strategy, the Palestinians will not fight Israeli forces directly but instead have concentrated their efforts on murdering Israeli civilians. The greater the number, the more pathetically vulnerable the victims -- disco-goers, women and children in a pizza restaurant -- the better. Four: Israel has acted defensively in this conflict; and while Israeli forces accidentally killed Palestinian civilians, their planned lethal attacks have all been aimed only at Palestinian military and terror-group leaders.
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This official U.S. policy statement is beyond stupid. It is immoral, hypocritical, obscene. It is indefensible. Israel is at war with an enemy that declines, in its shrewdness and its cowardice, to fight Israel's soldiers but is instead murdering its civilians, its women and children.
...
And when you get down to it, why, exactly, should Israel continue to exercise restraint? Why shouldn't it go right ahead and escalate the violence? The only point to waging war is to win. Israel is at war, and losing. It can win only by fighting the war on its terms, unleashing an overwhelming force (gosh, just what is called for in the Powell Doctrine) to destroy, kill, capture and expel the armed Palestinian forces that have declared war on Israel."
Here is another article:
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/opinion/A17584-2001Aug15.html|http://www.washingt...01Aug15.html]
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Post #5,385
8/16/01 5:06:19 AM
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Taking advantage of the US's lack of leadership perhaps?
All the opponents need notice is, the almost systematic dismantling (I wouldn't want to ascribe 'system' actually) of many tacit or formal agreements made worldwide PD (pre-Dubya).
And as the 'reasons' for each action or inaction are seen to vary from the sophomoric to the incomprehensible - this has to give the PLC its best shot in a decade -- if in fact they feared large support for Israel, from the US (?)
(And we're really pissing off the Russians; they trust us less than at any time since the honeymoon.. as their own C&C for nukes deteriorates along with the economy. Use 'em or lose 'em?) Whom will they choose to support - and for which political retaliation du jour? 'Principle' is likely way down the list.
Oil is still our game, the Saudis love US no more than most of the non-Christian world does - but we have this marriage made in Capitalist Heaven: we want the oil for our 7300# Ford Explorer Urban Assault Vehicles, which amuse the sheep and keep them grazing; they like air conditioned HumVees and golf courses with fountains - in the desert.
Israel faces the least 'satisfactory' kind of war - guerrilla war: mere military excellence is not effective unless a propaganda hit is seen as bearable. And with despicable sorts as encourage own children to volunteer To Do God's Work\ufffd (like Patriotism, the last refuge of a scoundrel) anyone who imagines a cure for this, especially via some nice next slogan - is blowing wishful smoke. One thing is pretty certain:
'Logic' shall play little part. Reason is needed, but there is no slightest basis for imagining that any aim is operating now, higher than vengeance.
It remains a M.A.D. world (Mutually Assured Destruction) - in case the past 9 years have lulled people into imagining that policy abandoned. Two Minutes \ufffd for launch.
Religious fervor is the root of all Evil, to use a word from the litany. Zealotry is invulnerable to sweet Reason.
Sincere condolences, given your locale.
Ashton
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Post #5,442
8/16/01 2:11:20 PM
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And this is different from the Haganah "freedom fighters"?
Or, is that repressed memory? It appears the Palestinians had an unwitting teacher.
And the blitzkrieg attack on Jenin is permitted by the Oslo agreement?
It seems to depend on whose ox is being gored. The opinion piece you cite is one-sided, your side. From here it looks like both the Israelis and the Palestinians are savages.
Alex
Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
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Post #5,455
8/16/01 3:40:13 PM
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And this is different from the Haganah "freedom fighters"?
Yes. The Hagannah NEVER sent suicide bombers against civilian targets. As for your other point, of course it is against the accord, however, the Palestinians have violated the Oslo Accords from day 1, therefore Israel is under no obligation to stick to them.
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Post #5,448
8/16/01 2:48:42 PM
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Some more OpEd pieces for your consideration.
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17584-2001Aug15.html|Krauthammer at WashPost - "The Only Way Out"] which argues that withdrawl and putting up a wall are necessary, after a war on Arafat. [link|http://www0.mercurycenter.com/premium/opinion/columns/mideastcom16.htm|Fuller at SanJoseMercuryNews (originally on LaTimes) - "Build a Berlin Wall in the Middle East"] with similar arguments, but he doesn't advocate a war first. I think either version of a wall around Israel would be a disaster because it wouldn't solve the problem but merely breed more resentment. Russia's war in Chechnya hasn't lessened the will of those who want them off of their land... [link|http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-000066459aug16.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dcomment|Moore at LaTimes - "Force Is Poor at Stifling Terrorism"] argues that force isn't going to make Israel safer. [...]
Each time Israel conducts an assassination operation in the territories, or when settlers randomly fire on Palestinian homes and vehicles, lives of innocents are threatened--and often lost--and thus the cycle of retaliation is ensured. Moreover, the lack of any legal pretext for such actions places Israel outside the self-proclaimed ethical bounds held central to its foundation and continued existence.
Contrary to repeated Israeli and U.S. statements regarding Yasser Arafat's ability to control extremists, divisions within Palestinian government and society--exacerbated by U.S. and Israeli demands for state-like action from an increasingly illegitimate non-state entity--render unrealistic the demands to control every potential terrorist action.
These statements merely increase popular support for extremists.
Even within those groups, either directly sponsoring or linked to terrorist acts, there are multiple divisions and no cohesive and accountable hierarchy. Fatah, the secular movement which Arafat heads, itself is divided. The absence of a real Israeli or U.S. willingness to promote a politically, economically stable Palestinian state makes it impossible for Arafat to justify mass arrests and detentions of anti-Israeli extremists. Moreover, by asking the Palestinian Authority to conduct mass arrests and detentions, Israel and the U.S. are reinforcing the PA's repressive instincts; do Israel and the United States want the PA to discard notions of democracy and human rights in favor of actions more akin to regimes in Syria or Iraq?
This pressure not only garners even greater Arab distrust of U.S. policy in the region but also needlessly endangers American as well as Israeli lives while promoting the creation of yet another authoritarian Arab regime.
There can be no justification for terrorism. Israel's dependence on assassination and military intimidation--methods centered on terror and fear--to combat extremism and impose an overtly pro-Israeli settlement jeopardizes innocent Israeli lives.
A stable, politically and economically viable Palestinian state is essential for Israel's security. Without a counter-terrorism policy that prioritizes such development, Israeli leaders are guaranteeing prolonged bloodshed. I agree with Moore. I know you don't. But do you agree with Krauthammer and Fuller that a wall of separation is needed? How would you solve the problems in Israel's relations with the Palestinians if not through negotiations with Arafat? Best of luck, bluke. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #5,456
8/16/01 3:56:09 PM
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No easy solution
Natan (Anatoly) Sharansky, who was a prisoner of conscience in the Soviet Union for years and is now a minister in the Israeli Government, made the following point. You can't make peace with a dictator. There are a number of reasons, the main one being it is in his interest to keep tensions high, it justifies his harsh rule, otherwise people will turn against him. Imagine if Arafat had accepted Barak's deal at Camp David, he would have a state. However, his rule would be in peril. People would start to wonder where are all the billions of dollars that were given to the PA? Why is it that so many people are still in refugee camps? Why is it that there is no freedom etc? Instead no one in the PA will really criticize Arafat for corruption etc. because Israel is the greater enemy. The same applies to Syria. Assad could not make peace with Israel, if he did how could he justify the martial law (which has been in effect since 1963)?
There is another problem. As I have pointed out many times, PA (and Arab)incitement has been going on for years. This has completely poisoned the atmosphere.
Based on this, I don't see a near term solution. The only way things will change is when the Arab society opens up to the world and becomes more democratic.
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Post #5,459
8/16/01 4:07:17 PM
8/16/01 4:09:30 PM
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If Arafat had accepted Barak's deal at Camp David...
he would be a dead man and you know it. The other Palestinians would kill him. For a dictator, he is weak.
Agree there is no easy solution. More so since the Israeli hard-liners took control.
Alex
Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Edited by a6l6e6x
Aug. 16, 2001, 04:09:30 PM EDT
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Post #5,504
8/16/01 9:23:34 PM
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and your solution is ?
negotiate accords with whom? Nothing signed has ever been held by the PA and in response Israel. Why bother with the PA at all? Just make peace with Jordan, get the borders between the two squared away and let the people who ran the country pre 67, run it again. The Jordanians. Let them deal with the refugee's why do these people need their own country? they already have one, Jordan who like as not would machine gun the pile of them.
they did last time.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
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Post #5,809
8/19/01 3:01:41 AM
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Then why bother negotiate with him?
What is the point, according to you Arafat can never sign a deal because he is too weak, unless Israel completely capitulates. According to you, the only solution is to wait until the Palestinians are really ready to negotiate.
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Post #5,458
8/16/01 4:00:58 PM
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Moore is right on!
Thanks for the link.
Alex
Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
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Post #5,810
8/19/01 3:08:45 AM
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Who would you negotiate with?
According to you if Arafat had signed the Camp David deal he would be dead. So who do you suggest Israel negotiate with, the air?
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Post #6,683
8/25/01 4:56:04 PM
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Well, Sharon and the Hamas seem to be working
from the same plan. Last one standing, wins!
At this point, the extremists on both sides are in control. Negotiations would be a waste of time.
Alex
Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel.
-- Anne Frank
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