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New You can't ignore the context
The fact is as Rostow said there was a lengthy debate about whether the resolution would say "the territories" meaning all of them or "territories" meaning some of them. That is clear both from what Rostow himself says(and he was one of the architects of the resolution) and from the debate then. You can't just ignore all that and say the English is clear. In these kinds of matters every word is weighed and measured and counts.

You are right the changing of borders by force is against UN principles, however the borders of 1949 were never established as permanent borders, they were just cease fire lines. The resolution states "within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;" the armistice lines of 1949 were never secure and recognized borders free from threats or force. It is also interesting to note that the resolution talks about the existing states. Nowhere does it even hint at the possibility of the creation of another state (a Palestinina state). Israel was supposed to withdraw and turn the territory over to Jordan.

As an aside, it is interesting to hear from an American that the changing of borders by force is illegitimate, as based on this principle the US should give back much of the SouthWest to Mexico, Florida to Spain, etc. Once America decides to return Florida to Spain or California and Texas to Mexico, it can then feel free to offer advice to Israel. After all, why should America view its own "occupied" territories any differently than those of Israel?
New I'm not ignoring the context.
Hi bluke,

First I can't read English ("...misinterpret what 242 really says..."), now I'm ignoring the context? Interesting debating style you have there. :-)

Yes, there was apparently deliberate phrasing of the text of 242 that way so that it would have support. And it's interesting that each side can have diametrically opposed views of the text - especially those who look at different "identical" translations.

[link|http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0g9w0|On Multi-Lingual Interpretation]

Security Council resolution 242 (1967), adopted on November 22, 1967, contains the following phrase:

"Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict."

[...]

That phrase has produced considerable controversy inside Israel, but within that controversy a secondary issue has arisen, of some juridical interest, since some of the protagonists of one point of view or another have purported to see a fundamental difference between one or other of these language versions of this phrase.

[...]

The above quoted phrase in resolution 242 (1967) is identical with the draft submitted by the United Kingdom on November 16, 1967, in Security Council document S/8247:

[...]

It is known from an outside source that the sponsors resisted all attempts to insert words such as "all" or "the" in the text of this phrase in the English text of the resolution,9 and it will not be overlooked that when that very word "all" erroneously crept into the Spanish translation of the draft, it was subsequently removed.

[...]

For instance, it is said that the indefinite quality of the English and Russian versions - which was a matter of political determinism-ought to be met by the introduction of a word such as "certains" into the French version (and its equivalent in the Spanish). But in such a context, certains would need some equivalent in English, for instance some, a word which does not appear in the English text and which, moreover, it is unlikely that a draftsman with any command of the English language, from either side of the Atlantic, would have willingly or wittingly inserted. If on this score there is any ambiguity in resolution 242 as it stands (which we do not think to be the case), it is rendered neither greater nor less by comparison of the different language versions, but is inherent in the text as adopted, in all its language versions. In this connection it may be observed that categorical assertions that the resolution obliges Israel completely to withdraw all its armed forces from all the occupied territories are not based on preference for one or other of the language versions of the resolution, but on the resolution in its integrity, in each one of its language versions. That was made clear, by the pro-Arab spokesmen, using the English, French and Russian languages, in the Security Council debate in November 1967. However, the real problem of what the resolution means on this cardinal question, or to put it differently, what the Security Council intended, arises whatever the language in which the resolution be read or a given contention expressed.


I don't contest that there was debate on the language of the resolution, or that the lack of "the" or "all" was important. I still think the resolution is clear, especially given the context of Article 2 of the UN Charter. The UN Security Council wasn't intending to impose a solution on the Middle East. It has no power to do so. It was listing principles that it felt a solution should entail and goals which should be met. That's all it could do (without veto by one member or another. Recall that the UN presence in the Korean War only happened because the USSR boycotted the important meeting.)

Carter, Clinton and others seemed to have views closer to mine than the one you express. Consider this story:

[link|http://www.dawn.com/2000/07/02/int3.htm|US dismisses Israeli view on pullout] from DAWN.com, a Pakistani English-language newspaper:

WASHINGTON, July 1 [2000]: Washington on Friday confirmed that UN Security Council Resolution 242 - which called for Israel to withdraw from land it captured in 1967 - applied to the Israeli-Palestinian talks, dismissing controversial comments by the Israeli attorney general that it did not.

"The resolutions 242 and 338 have been the cornerstone of the US approach to the Middle East for 30 years," said State Department spokesman Richard Boucher.

Resolution 338, passed in 1973, calls for talks to start "aimed at establishing a just and durable peace in the Middle East."

In an opinion published in the Israeli media on Thursday, Attorney General Elyakim Rubinstein said UN Security Council Resolution 242 did not apply to the Palestinians.

He said that Israel was not required to return the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority because the two areas were under Jordanian and Egyptian control when Israel seized them, and not the Palestinian group, which only formed in 1994.

Boucher said the 1967 UN resolution was the "framework that we've always worked in and it's the one we believe we should continue to work in".

"It's our view that all negotiations should be based on Resolutions 242 and 338 - all negotiations between Israel and the Arabs, including the negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians," the spokesman added.

[...]


I'd be happy if some compromise could be reached that each side was happy with. If that involved Israel keeping part of the West Bank and/or Gaza, so be it. IMO, it's not the land which matters, it's the people. But I don't expect any solution will have much success unless Israel withdraws to the pre-1967 borders.

My $0.02. I think I've had my say on this topic.

Cheers,
Scott.
New please continue
it is with informed dissent that opinions are made and without your disagreements opinions may be less informed. Continue to participate.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Land for peace
No insults were meant, the fact is most people have no idea of the history of Resolution 242, that is all I meant to say.

I object to the whole formulation of Land For Peace because it can't bring peace. Peace can be only achieved when both sides are ready for it. The land for peace formula encourages the Arabs to not really want peace but to want land. If Israel today signed a peace treaty with Syria and withdrew completely from the Golan would ther be peace? How could there be after Bashar Assad described Israel as worse then the Nazis? Look at Lebanon, Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon according to the UN, yet the fighting goes on. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Israelis are ready to make peace with all their meighbors and are ready to make painful territorial compromises. The same cannot be said for the other side. No Arab leader has prepared their nation for peace. This is why after more then 20 years of peace with Egypt, it is at best a cold peace, where the newspapers are full of anti-semitism, tourism is non-existant etc. This is why,in Jordan, anyone who promotes or deals with Israelis is boycoted and not allowed to work. Peace can only come when it is Peace for Peace. Of course, there may be territorial negotiations etc. but those need to be secondary. The reason why Sadat was so successful in 1977 was that he at least seemed to embrace this nation, he came to Jerusalem and declared that he wanted peace. Because of that he got all the territory that he wanted. Unfortunately, he was assasinated and the Egyptian people have not continued in that path.
     WashPost story on yesterday's bombing in Jerusalem. - (Another Scott) - (26)
         Simple Solution - (tablizer) - (3)
             huh? the Pals all of them want all jews to die or go away - (boxley) - (2)
                 Come on, BOTH sides are zealots -NT - (tablizer) - (1)
                     yeah but one is the chicken and one the pig - (boxley)
         Why is this a provocation? - (bluke)
         What a warped world we live in - (bluke) - (20)
             IMO, it's a provocation because - (Another Scott) - (19)
                 Excellent post! I could not have said it as well. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                 how very one sided of you - (boxley) - (17)
                     Nah! The Palestinians are not a monolithic... - (a6l6e6x) - (8)
                         So every attack by the Pals must be suffered - (boxley) - (7)
                             No, "turning the other cheek" is not a solution. - (a6l6e6x) - (6)
                                 doesnt the targeted assainations do just that? - (boxley) - (2)
                                     Sure, to some degree. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                         arresting them is one thing - (boxley)
                                 actually a ghandi approach would work - (boxley) - (2)
                                     Point taken. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                                     Sound psychology, but - (Ashton)
                     I think I'm fairly even-handed. - (Another Scott) - (7)
                         Not a problem with the resolution - (boxley)
                         What UN Resolution 242 really says - (bluke) - (5)
                             I think the English is clear. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                 You can't ignore the context - (bluke) - (3)
                                     I'm not ignoring the context. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                         please continue - (boxley)
                                         Land for peace - (bluke)

Her patriotism is as genuine as her hair color.
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