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New Re: Never again.
No we will die right where we stand, elected by ourselves ruling ourselves never again stamped on our souls.


You must be remembering about the Masada. Is this after the Israeli Arabs get exterminated?

After millennia of incredible abuse at the hands of others, the Jews of Israel are showing they are no better than their oppressors of the past.

The way I see it, if a just coexistence with others is not a goal, the Jews in Israel are doomed.
Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New perhaps your definition of just coexistance
is different then mine. The Israli Arabs (the few I have spoken with) feel a shit load safer under Israeli law that under the PA. Some interviewed in Jerusalem are extremely unhappy that instead of courts and law they get a dictatership and corruption. Are all the israeli arabs happy? No there is a real feeling of fear and second class resentment. But in the Israeli parliment the arab legislatures call for the destruction of the Jews without arrest. In the PA arabs that demand peace are killed by the government. No dissent is allowed. Should the remnants of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan get their own State with East Jerusalem the Capital? Absolutely. Jordan no longer wants these subjects, he kicked them out to lebanon where they took a stable vibrant country and destroyed it. When they were kicked out of Lebanon they moved to Tripoli before coming back to where their people were living like dogs while they feasted and lived like kings. Yes the PEOPLE of Palestine deserve a state, with a capital in Jerusalem (not all of it) The Israeli's get to keep their state with their Capitol in Jerusalem. If they will settle for that, quit the fighting and get on with the details. Unfortunately the PA version of coexistance is that they want to have all of Israeli and they might let some Jews live there. That appears to be the central problem.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: perhaps your definition of just coexistance
Where are the Israeli leaders like Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Rabin? These guys had vision and courage to seek a real peace. Sure there are always extremists, (on both sides) but, in time, these would be marginalized to ineffectiveness.

By comparison, Benjamin Netanyahu and now Ariel Sharon are turkeys. They are largely responsible for the deteriorating situation. It is so much easier to destroy than it is to build. For practical purposes, they are allied with Hamas. I don't disagree with your thoughts on what Hamas wants. But their plans got a lot more traction with the Israeli hard-liners in power. Do you for a moment think that the recent Orient House occupation, once again humiliating the Palestinians, is going to have any positive effect. Does December 7, 1941 and Pearl Harbor ring a bell? Sure, it made the U.S. surrender and slink away and hide in a hole. Right.

Yasser Arafat, the man with the tablecloth, is barely in power. His claim to fame is that he is known and occasionally gets to talk to US presidents. He is lucky to be still alive and not assassinated by a Palestinian. To call him a dictator is a bit far fetched. The Palestinians have more bickering factions than I care to keep track of. And, some, as you say, are brutal in making folks tow their "party line". The "Palestinian Authority" is mostly a joke. To blame them for all that goes on, as some Israelis do, is foolish. Not many Palestinians pay attention to it. Israeli demolitions of the police stations proves the Palestinian Authority is toothless and deserves no respect. Sure, these are the guys that are supposed to arrest the terrorists. Right.

It's fricken mess. If decent innocent people weren't dying it would be a comedy.

My "final state" solution for Israel would be to be at peace with it's neighbors including a Palestinian state. Israel would give back all the territories it won in the 1967 war, including East Jerusalem. The "settlements" could stay, but these Jews would become Palestinian citizens. Israel, relieved of a huge defense budget, would be the Middle East's economic powerhouse. Civilized behavior would be the norm. Yes, it's a dream.
Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New I disagree about the settlements
they would be killed out of hand. A 3rd party like Saudi's or us should re-create them inside the pre 67 borders. I feel although even if all this took place it would be about a week before Arafat start another infantada to get more, the shit would start all over again. Sharon is better than benny or barak. Orient House was a good move, no loss of life and a big point to be made, if you want to whine about peace agreements, keep the peace. Arafat does have a strong hold on the PA and they are not powerless as they control the banks, revenue agreements,schools, medical facilities, media,security orgs and what infrastructure they have left.
Arafat caused the infantada for one reason, Clinton and Barak came up with the best deal Barak could give and force the Israeli's to take. Without all of Jerusalem Arafat would have been killed the same way Michael Collins was killed, for not getting all of Ireland. The planning to rise began before Sharon went to the wailing wall. Remember the Wailing wall is the last external remnants of the Temple that Jews can visit. All of the rest is under Muslim Control. Sharon simply went to Temple square before the wall which as a Jew he has a right to do the same as Arafat can go every day to The dome of the rock to pray. The pretext for the violence was to save Arafats ass pure and simple. Now the occupation of Orient House again gives Arafat breathing room as it gives new focus and avoids a large "penalty" in retaliation for the bombing. Since Sharon's son is in direct communication with Arafat since his fathers election I might even suspect some back channel going on.
It is complex and going to get worse.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Orient House and settlements
The case of Orient House is very simple, it is illegal. The Oslo Accords required the PA to refrain from carrying out any governmental activities outside the areas under its control, Arafat blithely ignored his commitments in this regard, seeking to gain a foothold in Jerusalem. Orient House spearheaded such efforts, serving as host to a range of activities such as intelligence-gathering, diplomatic meetings, and political sessions. Why is it that when Israel tries to get the PA to fulfill it's obligations under the Oslo accords it is provocative?

What you and most everyone else miss is the fact that many of the settlements did not just sprout up in 1967, but were long standing Jewish settlements. By the 19th century many non-Jewish travelers, from Mark Twain to British and French envoys documented the largely empty land of Palestine, empty except for long-established Jewish populations in Jerusalem, Safed, Nablus, Jericho, Hebron, and others. Jews lived in Hebron throughout the generations. The Arabs chased them out in 1929 after massacring most of them. The media constantly talks about traditionally Arab East Jerusalem (Jerusalem then consisted of only what is now known as East Jerusalem) yet in one of the 1914 issues of National Geographic the population of Jerusalem is given as 40,000 Jews, 13,000 Christians (half of whom were Europeans), and only 7,000 Muslim. The Etzion Bloc was settled by Jews on purchased land, they were massacred in 1948.
New So the people in Hebron
Are the original settlers for hundreds of years? All the people there are directly decended from the Original owners? Lottsa them came to America on the way to hebron no? The settlements built since 67 are the ones I had in mind. Or older settlements with a population of 99% people not born in Israel. Hard choices I am glad I dont have to make.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: So the people in Hebron
No, those people are dead because the Arabs refused to let Jews live in Hebron from 1929-1967 almost 40 years. My point is that these settlements did not just spring out of thin air, these are places that Jews have lived for centuries or longer.
New understood but disagree
maintaining the Hebron Settlement is right historically but wrong on the ground. (just my 2 cents)
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: understood but disagree
Hebron is one of the holiest cities in Judaism. This is the land that Abraham bought as a burial ground, Abraham and Sara, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacab and Leah are all buried there. How can we just abandon it?
New It is not abandoned, just not occupied at present
pilgrimages could go there and people again live there. To me that claim is as wrong as the Arab one to Jerusalem.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
     someone might want to take the tablecloth off of his head - (boxley) - (36)
         I understand your anger, but more killing won't fix anything - (Another Scott) - (35)
             uh err that wouldnt be my way. - (boxley) - (34)
                 Sorry I seem to have misunderstood. But... - (Another Scott) - (33)
                     hmm - (boxley) - (4)
                         Hamas != Palestinian Authority just as Israel's Govt != Kach -NT - (Another Scott) - (3)
                             Re: Hamas != Palestinian Authority - (bluke) - (1)
                                 This may be the natural outgrowth of an attitude that - (Ashton)
                             Arafat includes Hamas as part of decision making - (bluke)
                     Agree with most of what you say. - (a6l6e6x) - (27)
                         nope both agrieved and the reason for no observers is - (boxley) - (16)
                             Re: Observers - (a6l6e6x) - (15)
                                 nope they have shown their partisan face one 2 many times -NT - (boxley) - (14)
                                     This statement from AI seems evenhanded to me. - (a6l6e6x) - (13)
                                         even handed my ass - (boxley) - (12)
                                             Re: even handed my ass - (a6l6e6x) - (11)
                                                 America, Britain - (boxley) - (10)
                                                     Re: Never again. - (a6l6e6x) - (9)
                                                         perhaps your definition of just coexistance - (boxley) - (8)
                                                             Re: perhaps your definition of just coexistance - (a6l6e6x) - (7)
                                                                 I disagree about the settlements - (boxley)
                                                                 Orient House and settlements - (bluke) - (5)
                                                                     So the people in Hebron - (boxley) - (4)
                                                                         Re: So the people in Hebron - (bluke) - (3)
                                                                             understood but disagree - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                 Re: understood but disagree - (bluke) - (1)
                                                                                     It is not abandoned, just not occupied at present - (boxley)
                         Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers - (bluke) - (9)
                             Re: Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                 Re: Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers - (bluke) - (1)
                                     Re: Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers - (a6l6e6x)
                             Your point, it seems... - (a6l6e6x) - (5)
                                 just a couple of reservations dont need auswitz - (boxley) - (2)
                                     Re: just a couple of reservations dont need auswitz - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                         The state of Indian Health care - (boxley)
                                 No my point is... - (bluke) - (1)
                                     A less conspiratorial answer might be, - (Ashton)

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