I'm definately not a pacifist.

Post #45,184 by Brandioch 7/11/02 1:47:19 PM Reply	I'm definately not a pacifist. And I consider myself to be a patriot (in the OLD SCHOOL usage. like the people who signed the Declaration of Independance were patriots). I do NOT support my government's actions when those actions are designed to advance the cause of a few COMMERCIAL interests. Shedding the blood of US soldiers so some CEO at some oil company will have a friendly regime in Afghanistan so he can run his pipeline and make more money is NOT patriotic.
Post #45,189 by ChrisR 7/11/02 2:17:16 PM Reply	Blaming big oil... Shedding the blood of US soldiers so some CEO at some oil company will have a friendly regime in Afghanistan so he can run his pipeline and make more money is NOT patriotic. Although I agree with the other things you say, I can't really agree that it's the oil companies that are to blame for mideast politics at the moment. Perhaps back in the 50's, back before the countries nationalized the assets of American oil companies, this argument was valid. Having left that era, though, most oil companies these days would benefit from higher oil prices. It's not the oil inductry that wants or desires cheap oil - it's the American consumer. As far as those in the oil industry are concerned, Saddam taking over Kuwait was good for business. Saddam taking over Saudi Arabia would probably be even better. As for being in Afghanistan, I think you misread why U.S. troops are stationed in the country. I don't think Caspian oil, and the politics of building a pipeline were the source of our involvement. Sure there are some that see opportunism based on the newfound presence, but the troops are not shedding their blood protecting a pipeline which has yet to be built.
Post #45,215 by Ashton 7/11/02 5:02:49 PM Reply	Not just.. (and just at the moment) (re Troops there now - protecting a chance for a pipeline) That was merely our main initial Corporate Interest in the area. I don't believe that Interest is waning - only the appearance that it has, is being spun. Still.. the very fact of the Texas manipulations and US policy of cooperation, subsidizing! of Taliban (til right up to 911) speaks volumes.. with just this One motive looming larger than any other (which I have ever seen claimed). This says a great deal about the tawdriness of US actual performance, the shallowness of US rationale for invoking, "the equally-ugly enemy of my enemy is my friend". These are far from 'principled' approaches to "foreign entanglements". These are the banal motives of the Imperialist shoring up hegemony - for having the economic & military might to Insist. And those of us who will pay any price, betray any principle - for the Right of all Muricans to drive gas-hog UAVs with subsidized cheap gasoline - are indeed the lawful prey of those who would rub 'our' noses in the actual Cost of this "cheap oil". Ashton
Post #45,254 by Silverlock 7/11/02 11:00:19 PM Reply	I think you miss something Oil is merely a means. The end is profits. Why else would Bush and company propose reducing the number of those in uniform and increase the budget for hardware? It all boils down to profit. Profit for those who supply the hardware. All friends of Bush. After all, he has to pay back all those favors that made him a 'succesfull' businessman doesn't he? "We are patriotic citizens too. Patriotism means 'love of country', caring about its people, its ecosystem, and others around us. Not giving blind loyalty and a blank check to George W. Bush. We are patriotic enough to care about the long term effects instead of just the short term gain. Therefore it is our patriotic duty to guard our country and our constitution against people and forces hiding behind the flag." -Jello Biafra
Post #45,269 by Brandioch 7/12/02 7:37:31 AM Reply	Different segments, different agendas. Oil is profitable. Very profitable. We must keep the oil flowing. Selling weapons systems is profitable. Very profitable. We must identify "the enemy" so that our government can buy more weapons systems. Frequently, "the enemy" is anyone who might restrict the flow of oil. Then all your friends get to share in your achievements.
Post #45,308 by Ashton 7/12/02 2:41:44 PM Reply	Such single-mindedness has a name. Obsession. If (in Murica anyway) your obsession is that, wherever you go.. you constantly see orange frogs appearing to hop around in the background .. most every place you go: the odds are great (unless you are also very rich Ex: one H. Hughes Esq.) -- "for your own protection" -- a so-named Psychiatrist/priest may eliminate even more of your civil liberties than John Ashcroft has achieved (thus far). You'll be locked up. Protest (fail to cooperate): more evidence of your instability. Indefinite detention in a temple of 'sanity' wherein even your very most reasonable argument is deemed: just a clever ploy to disguise your 'sickness'. But if your obsession is - $$.. if you are willing to risk the long-term survival of your own society [for Your and your Friends' short-term manipulations to obtain even more $$ than the huge amount already extirpated] ... if in Fact: you may well be risking even the future of the entire planet-full of Others, in search of merely Your next advantage in the control of unlimited $$/power -- Why that same Psychiatrist/priest shall pronounce you: not merely sorta-'sane' but Normal. <<< What is wrong with this picture?
Post #45,336 by jb4 7/12/02 4:44:57 PM Reply	Hey...for a small fee... .. any "psychologist" can be convinced to pronounce you sane... jb4 "I remember Harry S. Truman's sign on his desk. 'The buck stops here.' Strange how those words, while still true, mean something completely different today." -- Brandioch
Post #45,340 by Ashton 7/12/02 4:55:27 PM Reply	..and the $$-circle is complete.

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