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New Sorry I seem to have misunderstood. But...
you're not too clear in this post either.

Who's Marshall Planning here. The US? Israel? Israel can't afford it, and I don't think there's any consensus that the US should be that heavily involved and certainly little support for imposing a solution as we did in Europe.

It would be a disaster for the US to impose a solution right now. Part of the existing problem is that Britian and later the UN imposed a solution on the area. The people there (on both sides) have to find a solution themselves (with lots of help, but it has to be their solution. They have to be invested in it.)

AFAIK, Arafat is still the elected leader of the Palestinians and still has a great deal of support (though it's true he has many critics and there are lots of reports of corruption, etc.). I don't think the US or Israel declaring that Arafat must leave is a reasonable solution either. Elections may be a good idea, but the risk is that under the current circumstances someone extremely radical may take his place. And having Israel control communications in such an election would be a disaster as well. It would amount to Israel imposing its choice of leader on the Palestinians - something which would not be accepted.

Israel declaring "this is our final offer, take it or leave it" and withdrawing to some border which isn't mutually agreed won't yield a peaceful long-term situation. Israel needs Palestinian workers. Palestinians are going to be moving into and out of Israel for years to come. There are going to be people who resent an imposed solution and who will act out, just as there are now. There has to be mutual agreement on the solution, not imposition by fiat. Otherwise, IMHO, Israel is going to have to substantially change its economy (not be so dependent on "foreign" workers) and society (maybe force Israeli Arabs to leave). I don't think that's a workable solution either.

I don't think that people who supported a solution imposed by Israel without Palestinian agreement would be viewed as "heros". Lots of people there have been living in camps for close to 50 years. There are many reasons, but one of them is surely that they want to live in a country under their own control under their own terms. "Live Free or Die" isn't just a New Hampshire slogan. They won't accept an imposed solution - after all, they haven't so far.

"Selective assasination" is a terrible policy. Especially when it's "preemptive" as the Israeli government claims the latest attack was. How can you build respect for law and for your neighbors when you don't have the courage to prove your case legally? How does such a policy do anything but breed resentment, especially when children are killed in the process? It's a stupid, stupid policy which can only lead to escalation in the violence.

Escalation in the evil rhetoric will only lead to more senseless death and make a solution more difficult. Using the tactics of your enemy isn't the way to prevail. Remember Nixon's adage? "Others may hate you, but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself." He had trouble living it, but it's a very good thought to keep in mind.

My $0.02. Sorry for the lecture. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New hmm
you said
Lots of people there have been living in camps for close to 50 years. There are many reasons, but one of them is surely that they want to live in a country under their own control under their own terms. "Live Free or Die" isn't just a New Hampshire slogan. They won't accept an imposed solution - after all, they haven't so far.
end said

That goes for the Israeli's as well but the difference being the Isreali's would be willing to let them live free but as the hamas leader said last night in an interview that their stated intention is to make all Jews return to Europe and America or die. Not a whole lot to negotiate there.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Hamas != Palestinian Authority just as Israel's Govt != Kach
New Re: Hamas != Palestinian Authority
In many ways it is. In the last 10 months Arafat has met with the leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and included them in governmental discussion, In fact, there was supposed to be just such a meeting Thursday night (canceled after the bombing). Secondly, one of the pillars of the Oslo agreements was that the PA would battle terrorism and arrest terrorists (including from Hamas). They have not only stopped doing this but they emptied their jails of all the terrorists they had arrested previously. Also, the PA controlled Radio, TV and newspapers have been broadcasting anti-semitic and anti-Israel incitement non-stop for the past year (again, in clear violation of all the Oslo Accords) which certainly helps Hamas recruit suicide bombers. NBC's Martin Fletcher documented this when he presented a rare look on May 8, 2001 at the overt Palestinian recruitment of their own children to sacrifice themselves as martyrs. Using video taken from Palestinian television (provided by the monitoring group, Palestinian Media Watch), Fletcher reported: "They are using a stunning tactic \ufffd commercials on Palestinian TV asking children to drop their toys, pick up rocks, and do battle with Israel. They are even using actors to recreate the most famous image of the uprising \ufffd one that shocked the world \ufffd 12-year-old Muhammed al-Dura dying in his father's arms, caught in the crossfire of a confrontation between Israelis and Palestinians. The commercial shows Muhammed in paradise urging other children to "follow him." (In segments not shown on NBC but broadcast as part of the "commercial" on Palestinian television, "paradise" also reveals Muhammed al-Dura frolicking at a beach, at an amusement park and flying a kite in a tree-lined meadow.) Fletcher also takes the NBC camera to Gaza where children assembled in military-style ranks in a schoolyard are challenged to set aside their fears. They shout: "We ask Allah to destroy the Jews." Children are seen training for military confrontation. This is all orchestrated by the PA.
New This may be the natural outgrowth of an attitude that
parents own their offspring - and homo-sap 'owns' all other things, animate and inert. Why? and how did this attitude develop? We may experience the final answer about our madness, in our lifetime(s) - it seems to be coming together as if a novel. Each day sees more clinical insanity magnified by artificial techno 'communication' (actually it's just shouting - there's no message).

..it's an easy step for credulous tots, from the Tooth Fairy to - the God who will protect us from those nasty alien Others (and their God), will listen to our prayers for the enemy's evisceration and *will do it for 'Us'*. Magically! as always. (May as well ask for the Mercedes too - what have you got to lose?)

After a time and from a so common denominator, inculcated from the crib: everyone believes they 'own' a private Avenger (as the comic books teach, reinforce, entertain) and thus is created.. a fanciful security in a manifestly unpredictable world, where appearances are only the surface of life, in any case.

HTF did we tarry so long in our primitive fearfulness? Beats the shit out of me. We've always had other views of 'life' which balance this LCD one of course - since the first. But worldwide we appear as superstition besotted as the caveman VS Fire! and the irony of all this techno- whiz-bang stuff - heightens the absurdity of present behavior.

The extreme 'organization' noticeable in techno, from the masks for ICs to the err network of on-off switches which move infobabble around: give the comforting appearance of 'control', even over the things that go bump in the night. Of course there is no such control, nor is the psyche fooled by the diversionary toys (!)

Yet the fear persists - not merely of the same Unknown, but nowadays.. the fear of other individuals increases. For good techno- cause. Witness the Murican stimulus/response and the fear of that Unknown: groups here are convinced that the wisest course in life is - to be armed against one's 'fellow Muricans'.

Given up here, for the most part: on making it possible for all people here who work, to live decently (most of our impoverished work one or more jobs yet have no med. coverage, nor affordable housing nor vacations). The *only* rich nation whose work week has increased over the past 20 years.. all the while, as the wealth concentrates in fewer locations.

And everywhere, the techno has magnified the potential power an individual may wield, even so far as to the little Cheeldrun, molded by sociopathic parents and their peers - ready to not merely immolate selves - but wrap cordons of plastic around torsos and.. blow some Other bastards away (ie anyone not-Us) with their tiny bodies and already-killed psyches.

Musical theme: Kindertotenlieder. Mahler knew us *cold* too. Though this theme is about the accidental loss of children - he may not have been capable of writing music for the intentional conversion of children to auto-bombs.

The techno- capabilities have now for several generations, completely outstripped any social accommodation of.. these new destructive capabilities + our ancient superstitious response to all of life.

Sorry, but... the only theme I hear in the distance, just audible over the incessant and increasing daily noise of egoists and greed-besotted hucksters - is the Liebestodt theme, the slow, exquisitely enveloping simple chords - while the larger background theme is surely

G\ufffdtterdammerung. Dickie Wagner plumbed the Teuton soul to the fullest ever - even reducing so monstrous a homo-sap as Herr Shiklgruber to *actual tears* such as he might otherwise have shed, only for his dog Blondi.. or for his lost nymphet love, Geli Raubal - whom he drove to suicide.

The Nazis are baaack - here and in der Vaterland and elsewhere. The noise precludes 'the sane dialogue' advocated in these forums and others, and it is electronically enhanced noise such as has never been experienced before by homo-sap. We have no defense against the rising din - so alien to our 'lifeform'.

I guess that you are geographically near ground-zero (?) so you may not even 'experience' the implosion in the first \ufffdseconds. But the blast-wave will make the full 12.5K miles and roundtrip, as stimulus breeds other mindless response.

I was a child at end of WW-II and all I can opine is: deja-vu. I've heard the same saber-rattling live (and with better diction and usually better syntax too). We have not grown-up in the slightest. My father bought it probably ~ April of '45, somewhere in the Pacific - likely via kamikaze on his ship. His and those millions of other lives - have made no dent in our blind superstitions. None I have observed, despite the occasional eloquent pleas for sanity.

We are in fact a species of stupid and determinedly anti-clueful ones bent upon suicide. (It'll be God's Will\ufffd of course!) The nukes are still functional - more than 20K of the 'better ones', last I heard authoritatively.

Good Luck! to those now at ground zero. You won't go alone, if our unbroken history is a predictor. We're with ya! as Tom Lehrer noted in the '50s:


"We will all go together when we go..
(ta ta da ta da ta ta)
Yes, we'll all go together when we go..
(refrain) - Dickie Wagner would have Loved Him!



Ashton
New Arafat includes Hamas as part of decision making
Here is an excerpt from an interview with the head of Hamas Sheikh Yassin( [link|http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/08/10/yassin/index.html|http://www.salon.co...n/index.html] ):
Q. The relationship between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority has improved a lot with the Intifada. What kind of contacts do you have with Arafat?
A. I had an hour long face-to-face meeting with Arafat a month ago.

If the head of Hamas can meet with Arafat the Arafat is responsible at least in part for his actions.
New Agree with most of what you say.
The only difference between the two sides are the tools available and used to terrorize the other. There is plenty of blame to go around. For this, they truly deserve each other. "You reap what you sow".

However, I'm anguished by the loss of innocent lives on both sides. Not everyone is party to the intense mutual hate.

If you think only Israel is the aggrieved party, you might ask yourself why Sharon does not want to allow international observers.
Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New nope both agrieved and the reason for no observers is
that the few they have consistantly act as an inteligence arm of the PA. You have every major news organisation in the world right there monitoring already. What you do not have is armed partisans inside of Israel proper willing to carry water for the terrorists. Since Jews have such wonderful friends everywhere in the world they would rather work it out for themselves.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: Observers
Agreed that observers cannot be partisan. On the other hand, if there are fair critisisms to be made, they can be public.

Care to check Amnesty International's take on the conflict? I haven't done that myself lately.
Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New nope they have shown their partisan face one 2 many times
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New This statement from AI seems evenhanded to me.
[link|http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/news.nsf/WebAll/C4F8D1A775509C4C80256AA3004968A5?OpenDocument|Amnesty International re:Jerusalem]

Not that anyone would listen.

Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New even handed my ass
quote
More than 500 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli Defence Forces and other security forces, most of them unlawfully, when no other lives were in imminent danger. More than 140 Israelis have been killed; most of them are civilians deliberately killed by armed groups in bombing attacks or drive-by shootings.
end quote

Unlawfully? how the fsck you figger that? and the PA bombings are not labelled unlawful? The Israeli IDF is acting unlawfully but not the Palestinians?
You dont referee professional wrestling for a living do you? :)

Civilians not targets have been killed by the IDF not as targets, I agree that response is wrong. I also agree that if they kill the leadership of the people who are sending out the suicide bombers, that is right. Be careful kill the cadres and the rest will find a different way to fight, one that may lead to peace. Do I object that the palestinians are fighting? No, that is their right. Do I object that leaders are using suicide bombing as a tactic? No. So if I send a 3rd party to kill you, should you only kill the attacker knowing I have more coming or do you stop me the source of these attacks. You kill the man pulling the trigger. Can you ever see a man who convinces another man/woman to strap on a bomb, you make it, set them up being tried for a war crime? Is that not against the geneva convention? Yet I see no international call for the arrest of these people. What other choice is there?

Question, is there any place in the world that Jews can have where only Jews are allowed to decide whether Jews may live or die?
tha answer always appears to be no.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: even handed my ass
Question, is there any place in the world that Jews can have where only Jews are allowed to decide whether Jews may live or die?
tha answer always appears to be no.

Indeed, the answer appears to be no. But, is there any other group of people in the world for whom it is different? It's a small world.
Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New America, Britain
Both of these countries have policies of not selecting sub groups for extermination and before you holler, that hast been always the case but There are trying.
Having all the Jews move to America to be safe was what we thought Germany was as we fled russia for safety. No we will die right where we stand, elected by ourselves ruling ourselves never again stamped on our souls.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: Never again.
No we will die right where we stand, elected by ourselves ruling ourselves never again stamped on our souls.


You must be remembering about the Masada. Is this after the Israeli Arabs get exterminated?

After millennia of incredible abuse at the hands of others, the Jews of Israel are showing they are no better than their oppressors of the past.

The way I see it, if a just coexistence with others is not a goal, the Jews in Israel are doomed.
Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New perhaps your definition of just coexistance
is different then mine. The Israli Arabs (the few I have spoken with) feel a shit load safer under Israeli law that under the PA. Some interviewed in Jerusalem are extremely unhappy that instead of courts and law they get a dictatership and corruption. Are all the israeli arabs happy? No there is a real feeling of fear and second class resentment. But in the Israeli parliment the arab legislatures call for the destruction of the Jews without arrest. In the PA arabs that demand peace are killed by the government. No dissent is allowed. Should the remnants of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan get their own State with East Jerusalem the Capital? Absolutely. Jordan no longer wants these subjects, he kicked them out to lebanon where they took a stable vibrant country and destroyed it. When they were kicked out of Lebanon they moved to Tripoli before coming back to where their people were living like dogs while they feasted and lived like kings. Yes the PEOPLE of Palestine deserve a state, with a capital in Jerusalem (not all of it) The Israeli's get to keep their state with their Capitol in Jerusalem. If they will settle for that, quit the fighting and get on with the details. Unfortunately the PA version of coexistance is that they want to have all of Israeli and they might let some Jews live there. That appears to be the central problem.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: perhaps your definition of just coexistance
Where are the Israeli leaders like Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Rabin? These guys had vision and courage to seek a real peace. Sure there are always extremists, (on both sides) but, in time, these would be marginalized to ineffectiveness.

By comparison, Benjamin Netanyahu and now Ariel Sharon are turkeys. They are largely responsible for the deteriorating situation. It is so much easier to destroy than it is to build. For practical purposes, they are allied with Hamas. I don't disagree with your thoughts on what Hamas wants. But their plans got a lot more traction with the Israeli hard-liners in power. Do you for a moment think that the recent Orient House occupation, once again humiliating the Palestinians, is going to have any positive effect. Does December 7, 1941 and Pearl Harbor ring a bell? Sure, it made the U.S. surrender and slink away and hide in a hole. Right.

Yasser Arafat, the man with the tablecloth, is barely in power. His claim to fame is that he is known and occasionally gets to talk to US presidents. He is lucky to be still alive and not assassinated by a Palestinian. To call him a dictator is a bit far fetched. The Palestinians have more bickering factions than I care to keep track of. And, some, as you say, are brutal in making folks tow their "party line". The "Palestinian Authority" is mostly a joke. To blame them for all that goes on, as some Israelis do, is foolish. Not many Palestinians pay attention to it. Israeli demolitions of the police stations proves the Palestinian Authority is toothless and deserves no respect. Sure, these are the guys that are supposed to arrest the terrorists. Right.

It's fricken mess. If decent innocent people weren't dying it would be a comedy.

My "final state" solution for Israel would be to be at peace with it's neighbors including a Palestinian state. Israel would give back all the territories it won in the 1967 war, including East Jerusalem. The "settlements" could stay, but these Jews would become Palestinian citizens. Israel, relieved of a huge defense budget, would be the Middle East's economic powerhouse. Civilized behavior would be the norm. Yes, it's a dream.
Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New I disagree about the settlements
they would be killed out of hand. A 3rd party like Saudi's or us should re-create them inside the pre 67 borders. I feel although even if all this took place it would be about a week before Arafat start another infantada to get more, the shit would start all over again. Sharon is better than benny or barak. Orient House was a good move, no loss of life and a big point to be made, if you want to whine about peace agreements, keep the peace. Arafat does have a strong hold on the PA and they are not powerless as they control the banks, revenue agreements,schools, medical facilities, media,security orgs and what infrastructure they have left.
Arafat caused the infantada for one reason, Clinton and Barak came up with the best deal Barak could give and force the Israeli's to take. Without all of Jerusalem Arafat would have been killed the same way Michael Collins was killed, for not getting all of Ireland. The planning to rise began before Sharon went to the wailing wall. Remember the Wailing wall is the last external remnants of the Temple that Jews can visit. All of the rest is under Muslim Control. Sharon simply went to Temple square before the wall which as a Jew he has a right to do the same as Arafat can go every day to The dome of the rock to pray. The pretext for the violence was to save Arafats ass pure and simple. Now the occupation of Orient House again gives Arafat breathing room as it gives new focus and avoids a large "penalty" in retaliation for the bombing. Since Sharon's son is in direct communication with Arafat since his fathers election I might even suspect some back channel going on.
It is complex and going to get worse.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Orient House and settlements
The case of Orient House is very simple, it is illegal. The Oslo Accords required the PA to refrain from carrying out any governmental activities outside the areas under its control, Arafat blithely ignored his commitments in this regard, seeking to gain a foothold in Jerusalem. Orient House spearheaded such efforts, serving as host to a range of activities such as intelligence-gathering, diplomatic meetings, and political sessions. Why is it that when Israel tries to get the PA to fulfill it's obligations under the Oslo accords it is provocative?

What you and most everyone else miss is the fact that many of the settlements did not just sprout up in 1967, but were long standing Jewish settlements. By the 19th century many non-Jewish travelers, from Mark Twain to British and French envoys documented the largely empty land of Palestine, empty except for long-established Jewish populations in Jerusalem, Safed, Nablus, Jericho, Hebron, and others. Jews lived in Hebron throughout the generations. The Arabs chased them out in 1929 after massacring most of them. The media constantly talks about traditionally Arab East Jerusalem (Jerusalem then consisted of only what is now known as East Jerusalem) yet in one of the 1914 issues of National Geographic the population of Jerusalem is given as 40,000 Jews, 13,000 Christians (half of whom were Europeans), and only 7,000 Muslim. The Etzion Bloc was settled by Jews on purchased land, they were massacred in 1948.
New So the people in Hebron
Are the original settlers for hundreds of years? All the people there are directly decended from the Original owners? Lottsa them came to America on the way to hebron no? The settlements built since 67 are the ones I had in mind. Or older settlements with a population of 99% people not born in Israel. Hard choices I am glad I dont have to make.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: So the people in Hebron
No, those people are dead because the Arabs refused to let Jews live in Hebron from 1929-1967 almost 40 years. My point is that these settlements did not just spring out of thin air, these are places that Jews have lived for centuries or longer.
New understood but disagree
maintaining the Hebron Settlement is right historically but wrong on the ground. (just my 2 cents)
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: understood but disagree
Hebron is one of the holiest cities in Judaism. This is the land that Abraham bought as a burial ground, Abraham and Sara, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacab and Leah are all buried there. How can we just abandon it?
New It is not abandoned, just not occupied at present
pilgrimages could go there and people again live there. To me that claim is as wrong as the Arab one to Jerusalem.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers
Let us look at how the international community treats Israel. In Lebanon what exactly has UNIFIL done? At best, they watched Hizbullah kidnap 3 Israeli soldiers (in reality they may have actually helped Hizbullah), took a video of it and denied for months that such a video existed, and then refused to show Israel an unedited copy of the video. Have they stopped a single Hizbullah cross border attack? If this is the case what on earth will international observers do here?
There is going to be a conference on Racism in Durban South Africa, the main issue to be discussed is Israel and Zionism. Whatever you think of Israel, is it really the main human rights and racism problem in the world today? What about the Taliban who destroyed ancient Buddhist artifacts, are making non-Muslims wear badges on their clothes, about to execute Christians for trying to convert Moslems, etc.? How about the Sudan where slavery still exists? How about China? What about Muammar Gaddafi of Libya who among other terrorist attacks, ordered the bombing of Pan Am 103? What about Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe who is allowing the killing of white farmers taking their land and giving it to blacks? How about Russia which has killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians in Chechnya? While Pol Pot was murdering two million of his own people, the international community devoted more time and energy to the status of Palestinian "refugees." Hutus and Tutsis chop one another's heads off with machetes in the tens of thousands with fewer calls for intervention than are heard after the death of one Palestinian in an Israeli retaliatory strike.
The double standards to which Israel is held further hint at the deeper source of the hatred of Israel. The BBC proclaims Prime Minister Ariel Sharon a war criminal, and Belgium would put him on trial for what he should have known about the murderous capabilities of the Christian Phalangists. Yet Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat, whose hands are drenched in blood, including 241 Marines killed in a 1983 car bombing of their barracks in Lebanon, is awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Arafat fears neither arrest in Belgium nor that the BBC will document his crimes any time soon. Israel is threatened with economic sanctions while China, in which citizens are routinely executed for minor economic "crimes," religion is brutally suppressed, and couples are sterilized after one child, is awarded the 2008 Summer Olympics by the international community. Why is it that some in Norway are threatening to arrest Carmi Gillon the new Israeli ambassador because of actions taken when he was head of the Israeli GSS and no one says a word about Vladimir Putin who was head of the KGB?

Every response by Israel to lethal attacks on its civilians and soldiers is condemned as "excessive force." Compared to what? The 1,000 Panamanian civilians killed by US forces in order to arrest Panamanian strongman Manuel Noriega on drug-running charges? The hundreds of Somalian civilians, including many unarmed women and children, killed by US peacekeepers in 1993? Did the US have more important interests in Panama or Somalia than Israel has protecting its citizens from attack in its heartland?

So, I ask you 1 simple question, does Israel have any reason to believe that international observers are going to be impartial?
New Re: Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers
First, welcome to zIWeThey. I was hoping you were not left behind in the move.

I agree that partisan observers are of no use. But, surely someone in this world can be objective in what they see. At this point neither side of the conflict has much credibility. Everything is spin, yours included.

If all international observer are anti-Israeli, that should tell you something. And it's not that Jews have no friends. My conclusion is that Sharon knows fully well that, with more observers, the Israeli world image would suffer even more.

I agree with your point about the Racism conference. They can talk about Israel and the U.S. if they want, but these belong at the bottom of list not the top.
Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New Re: Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers
What did I say that was spin? You didn't answer a single point that I made. What the UN did in Lebanon is fact, they admitted that they covered up the fact that they had a videotape, they imposed conditions etc. How can you explain that there have been more anti-Israel resolutions in the UN then anyone else? The fact is that Israel is at the top of the racism conference not the bottom, tell me why? When you find thos impartial observers let me know, until then Israel can do without them.
New Re: Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers
Well I got to see it on PBS (Public Broadcasting Service) news tonight (Aug 18, here). An unarmed Palestinian/Israeli Arab (who can tell?) protesting in front of Orient House being beaten by at least half dozen Israeli soldiers with rifle butts, fists, and when he was down on the ground being kicked. Very impressive! But, you know, I don't think their shirts were the right brown color.

Yes, I can see why observers are not wanted.
Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New Your point, it seems...
is that there are a lot terrible things done by and to a lot of people including by the United States. So, Israel should be not criticized for doing its share of these things.

Fine. Continue with your race to the bottom. Build your Auschwitz in the Sinai and solve your "Arab Problem". Surely the Arabs deserve their own holocaust.

I had higher hopes for you.
Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New just a couple of reservations dont need auswitz
we'll even provide the Arab Health care service to modelled on your Indian Health care service, that should do them in soon enough. :)
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: just a couple of reservations dont need auswitz
Do you mean the measles infected blankets, or something more subtle?
Alex

Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not certain about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
New The state of Indian Health care
Indian Health care is provided by the BIA under the BLM. Provides Health care on reservations. For example in 1986 In Reno NV the local BIA clinic's Sole Dr for 5k Local Indians told me that hospitalization on The Res hospital was a virtual death sentence. Diagnostic equipment from the 1930's and Docs that he said he wouldnt trust to treat his wifes dog and he didnt like his wifes dog. It is getting better lately because the tribes have been insisting that the government contract out the administration of these clinicsan hospitals to the tribes. Before a beaurocrat in DC would make all decisions icluding the hiring of Docs and wouldnt pay squat so you got only the poor quality physicians that couldnt get a job anywhere else. Government run healthcare is a dangerous joke. Less money is allocated for more people every year.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New No my point is...
That with all these much worse things going on in the world why is Israel being singled out? And based on this why should I believe that international observers will be impartial?
New A less conspiratorial answer might be,
the often utter irrelevancy of 'The Press' - by which I mean the fewer and fewer giant Press Corporations - whose BODs certainly affect content in ways much more subtly than by overtly "reviewing editors' copy".

Take the Murican press: the OJ soap opera, the Monika Lewinsky utter feeding frenzy .. in UK - the periodic Profumo-like scandals. Anything to do with The Royals\ufffd. Each topic takes on a media (thus *ad* revenue) frenzy of its own: a classic servo feedback loop.

Clearly - to some extent - the populace laps up this kind of simple gossip, as is legendary homo-sap social behavior. Personally I doubt that, even the ovine plurality (??) is actually That juvenile; in whatever event - the phenom makes each group appear to be even more inane than is likely 'true'.

Israel VS Everyone around it! + the mastery of modern spin + the bluster, hatred and just plain idiocy.. of various interpretations of ancient texts: all combine to create an irresistible morass of innuendo, magnification of asinine comments by patently biased loudmouths and - death.

And still, IMhO, all the -isms remain 'out there', no matter what lip-service is paid to the magnificent ideas of Tolerance and of Compassion. (Especially by the warring religions and the often purely Hate-filled utterances of their spokesmen.) Anti-Semitism abounds in 'Aryan' (!!) mentations.

In Murica, 'least during my childhood and beyond, while we had derogatory stereotypes for Every identifiable group - I noted that Jews were accorded about the foulest caricatures except for just two cases which come to mind:

Blacks / Negroes then - and the grotesque drawings of 'The Jap' in WW-II. (Even the ones of Hitler or ~your average German soldier were far less dehumanized) -- though the Nazi caricatures of Jews as vermin: probably remains the low point of human bestiality in print (? could easily be wrong; we are so Good at dehumanizing other human 'aliens').

Odd thing though: so also are the 'Arabs' ~Semitic! nor do their state religions have much nice to say about Aryan-types and Their (Also, One True\ufffd) religions.

So in the end, it can't be just about ethnicity or the theological - pick yer fav Testament to kill about? - but something Else which lately gives less benefit of doubt to: Israel.

Lousy PR? or just tawdry and provoked stupidity of the sort, why can't the nasty Jews summon up a couple thousand km\ufffd from the sea -- for those Poor Palestinians whose Jordanian and other 'brothers' won't give shit to em'? Huh?

How does it go? - never ascribe to cupidity / conspiracy, that which can be explained by ignorance..


A.
     someone might want to take the tablecloth off of his head - (boxley) - (36)
         I understand your anger, but more killing won't fix anything - (Another Scott) - (35)
             uh err that wouldnt be my way. - (boxley) - (34)
                 Sorry I seem to have misunderstood. But... - (Another Scott) - (33)
                     hmm - (boxley) - (4)
                         Hamas != Palestinian Authority just as Israel's Govt != Kach -NT - (Another Scott) - (3)
                             Re: Hamas != Palestinian Authority - (bluke) - (1)
                                 This may be the natural outgrowth of an attitude that - (Ashton)
                             Arafat includes Hamas as part of decision making - (bluke)
                     Agree with most of what you say. - (a6l6e6x) - (27)
                         nope both agrieved and the reason for no observers is - (boxley) - (16)
                             Re: Observers - (a6l6e6x) - (15)
                                 nope they have shown their partisan face one 2 many times -NT - (boxley) - (14)
                                     This statement from AI seems evenhanded to me. - (a6l6e6x) - (13)
                                         even handed my ass - (boxley) - (12)
                                             Re: even handed my ass - (a6l6e6x) - (11)
                                                 America, Britain - (boxley) - (10)
                                                     Re: Never again. - (a6l6e6x) - (9)
                                                         perhaps your definition of just coexistance - (boxley) - (8)
                                                             Re: perhaps your definition of just coexistance - (a6l6e6x) - (7)
                                                                 I disagree about the settlements - (boxley)
                                                                 Orient House and settlements - (bluke) - (5)
                                                                     So the people in Hebron - (boxley) - (4)
                                                                         Re: So the people in Hebron - (bluke) - (3)
                                                                             understood but disagree - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                 Re: understood but disagree - (bluke) - (1)
                                                                                     It is not abandoned, just not occupied at present - (boxley)
                         Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers - (bluke) - (9)
                             Re: Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                 Re: Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers - (bluke) - (1)
                                     Re: Why Sharon doesn't want int'l observers - (a6l6e6x)
                             Your point, it seems... - (a6l6e6x) - (5)
                                 just a couple of reservations dont need auswitz - (boxley) - (2)
                                     Re: just a couple of reservations dont need auswitz - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                         The state of Indian Health care - (boxley)
                                 No my point is... - (bluke) - (1)
                                     A less conspiratorial answer might be, - (Ashton)

Credit grudgingly slathered, for consistency.
237 ms