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New Brexit short form. Or does democracy actually work to the benefit of anyone?
Here's my read of the Brexit mess. Peter can correct me where I've misinterpreted.

It looks to me like the "England First!" crowd voted to secede from the EU without fully comprehending what they were asking for in a fit of nationalist hysteria. For an as yet unidentified minority, it would also appear that folks with an anti-Brown people disposition also voted leave.

Many of the cowards who ran the leave campaign left office near or immediately following their unexpected victory. The idiot who called for the referendum in the first place also resigned, with no plan at all for handling a win for leave.

Aside: Having a referendum was, imNSho, a remarkably inane thing to do. It is akin to asking the majority of Hoosiers in this state how to effect international diplomacy.

So the new PM has an impossible task. The country's people were sold a bill of goods (literally, that "We can take all the good parts of being an EU member without having to accept any of the less desirable bits *and* we'll get over 300K/week in savings to shore up NHS). The EU was disinclined to allow England to have their cake and eat it, so May was forced to compromise.

In the end, what the Sheeple of the UK (England and Wales really, Scotland and Ireland voted remain) got was Non-Voting EU membership status initially with a little more say over immigration and a promise of more independence later. In short, the UK is worse off than it was as a full member of the EU.

Given this result and the result of OUR most recent Presidential election, can anyone argue that democracy is a good idea?

For myself, I'm increasingly of the view that Hamilton was right.

Edit: Tpyo.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
Expand Edited by mmoffitt Nov. 26, 2018, 04:23:21 PM EST
New Democracy has certainly yielded some suboptimal results lately
…and this does not surprise, given that the so many of the Teeming Millions are addled and credulous. Somewhere (around eight or ten years ago, I think) I ran across an observation to the effect that the left has to get over the idea that Americans are decent, goodhearted folks who are being manipulated by cynical plutocrats, and realize instead that Americans are vengeful jerks who are being manipulated by cynical plutocrats. These conditions are clearly not unique to North America.

This said, how are we to organize society? We might have better luck under an enlightened despot than under the “popularly” elected Donald J. Trump, but where does one find an enlightened despot, much less a reliable supply of these? And, of course, “enlightened” by whose, er, lights? The social and economic scheme under which you might prefer to live would likely be abhorrent to the Christian reconstructionist down the block, and vice-versa.

As my old acquaintance Henry (probably Heinrich), a veteran of the Wehrmacht’s drive into the USSR in 1941-42 (luckily injured at a point in the campaign when it was still practical to evacuate casualties back to Germany) observed to me once, “the most depraved street criminal is not more ruthless than the wealthy in defense of their privilege.” It’s difficult to imagine a system that the rich will not strive to corrupt to their exclusive advantage.

A conundrum.

cordially,
New I don't have any recommendations for a solution.
The old tv series "Kung Fu" stole a lot of their material from various Taoist texts. Surprisingly, they often did not completely misrepresent the original meaning. With the recent failures (imo) of Western Democracies of late, I'm reminded of one such story. A blind priest is about to be executed along with another prisoner. The priest is nonplussed by his impending doom and this causes the prisoner to ask, "Has your lack of sight made you so weary of this life?" The priest chuckles and replies, "It is not my lack of vision that causes me to grow weary of this life, but the presence of my hearing." Each and every year since 1980 I have moved closer to that position.

It may well be that we cannot find our benevolent dictator because we, on the whole, do not deserve one. As constituted, mankind may be incapable of building a just system of governance. It may be the case that democracy would work, if only the populace on the whole was well-informed and interested in something more than the accumulation of stuff and procreation. I don't see our species evolving past that and every society we've built in the past 2,000 years has ultimately succumbed to the greed of a tiny minority. Yet, we learn nothing. And so it goes.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New natural selection
Our species emerged from the last ice age as small populations of nomadic hunter-gatherers, and neither our brains nor our dietary requirements have much changed since then. The wonder is not that we do urban/industrial/bureaucratic societies poorly, but that we have contrived to conduct these at all.

cordially,
New The Sheeple of the UK got manipulated by Russian disinformation...
just as the US Sheeple got manipulated to elect tRump.

The problem is that we (as well as the UK) have too many sheeple that are incapable of critical thinking and are left to make decisions based on emotions alone. Education could change this, but politicians and big business like things the way they are.

Sports, entertainment, and alcohol is all it takes to keep the sheeple minds occupied and lives satisfied.
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New I've no doubt Russian money played a role there, as here.
And your point about education is spot on.

I'm beginning to believe we named the victors of the Cold War prematurely. Particularly when Soviet Russian vessels attack Ukrainian vessels and our President does not condemn them.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Indeed.
Cameron caved to the mouth-breathers in his party in having the stupid referendum, and set it up stupidly (moving the UK out should have required substantial majorities in each of the "countries" (England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland), not just an overall majority, not just 50% + 1, if the stupid thing were to be held at all).

Plus, having a referendum on such a complex international agreement is stupid to begin with. It wasn't buying a pig in a poke (with all kinds of disinformation from Russian agents and the like), it was buying Pandora's Box. There is no way that voters could make an informed decision about what the changes would entail. Elected representatives have the responsibility to make such decisions and the ability to shape the laws and agreements necessary based on hearings and testimony and evidence and all the rest. Voters simply can't do that in an informed way, and they shouldn't be asked to do so.

It was a disaster from the day that Cameron decided to put it to a vote. And it remains so.

The Parliament should trash May's plan, trash the idea of leaving the EU, and just forget it ever happened. (Being Sovereign, Parliament can do that.) It's the clear, sensible, and obvious solution. But the party leaders are (apparently) too weak to do so.

(sigh)

It's not a failure of Democracy. It's a failure of weak leaders.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Parliament had a chance to nip it in the bud, and passed. The cu-ts.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New ..maybe deeper in the psyche than mere Russky contrivances
lies the koan; most people live lives of quiet desperation.

(Believe this was first uttered by Thurber, prolly with an accompanying sketch ..maybe even in the '30s (too lazy to search/weed out the pretenders etc.))
Back then they weren't despondent over such matters as Suicide-via-climate ignorance.. yet Mr. Thurber opined what he said; it's gotta be Worse now is all I wot. :-/
New Thoreau rather than Thurber
I’d observe in passing that there’s something to be said for living lives in quiet desperation as opposed to noisy desperation.

desperately,
New Agreed, in restaurants and in third-guessing
(as that second-guess looks none too rosy) by all means let's have quiet ... weltschmerz!

resignedly
/while silently protesting ..they Should have to put up with my pissing & moaning! Because.
New That's about the size of it
But be under no illusion: Theresa May is neck deep in a pile of rotting badger guts and it's all of her own making.
New "All" is a bit harsh, don't you think?
I'm not fan of May, but she was handed a turd topped with whipped cream and told to put a cherry on top of it and turn it into a sundae.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Nope
Doing something else would have required a spine, however.

She has decided to champion the one deal that (a) everyone hates and (b) doesn't actually fulfil the remit of the referendum.
New What are the chances she wants it to fail so they can pull out of, er, pulling out?
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New That'd work for me!
She was a remainer during the referendum, after all.
New Then why she's so adamant about no second referendum?
Unless she's leaving that for a successor, of course.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New That's what I'm getting at. How much of this is a play?
"Oh, looks like it won't pass the vote. Since a crash exit would be worse, let's ask the public what they think now!"
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New If it doesn't pass, Labour's making noises about a No Confidence vote.
I hear what you're saying, but a second referendum is despised by the Brexiteers who make the somewhat not unreasonable point, "Why should we vote again? They didn't listen to us last time?"
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Because idiot
</sherlock_holmes>
New Speaking of Sherlock, is there another season on the way?
--

Drew
New I read that a little differently.
She's decided to champion the one deal that doesn't throw the entire UK into economic disaster.

I reckon that her political double-speak notwithstanding, she thinks satisfying (b) would be bad for your country (as I do) but still wants to tell the brexiteers they're winning; reasoning that if they believed Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg, they'll believe anything. She might not be far off if recent polling that the public is behind her is any measure.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
     Brexit short form. Or does democracy actually work to the benefit of anyone? - (mmoffitt) - (21)
         Democracy has certainly yielded some suboptimal results lately - (rcareaga) - (2)
             I don't have any recommendations for a solution. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                 natural selection - (rcareaga)
         The Sheeple of the UK got manipulated by Russian disinformation... - (a6l6e6x) - (6)
             I've no doubt Russian money played a role there, as here. - (mmoffitt)
             Indeed. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                 Parliament had a chance to nip it in the bud, and passed. The cu-ts. -NT - (mmoffitt)
             ..maybe deeper in the psyche than mere Russky contrivances - (Ashton) - (2)
                 Thoreau rather than Thurber - (rcareaga) - (1)
                     Agreed, in restaurants and in third-guessing - (Ashton)
         That's about the size of it - (pwhysall) - (10)
             "All" is a bit harsh, don't you think? - (mmoffitt) - (9)
                 Nope - (pwhysall) - (8)
                     What are the chances she wants it to fail so they can pull out of, er, pulling out? -NT - (malraux) - (6)
                         That'd work for me! - (pwhysall)
                         Then why she's so adamant about no second referendum? - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                             That's what I'm getting at. How much of this is a play? - (malraux) - (1)
                                 If it doesn't pass, Labour's making noises about a No Confidence vote. - (mmoffitt)
                             Because idiot - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                 Speaking of Sherlock, is there another season on the way? -NT - (drook)
                     I read that a little differently. - (mmoffitt)

A taste of the local Surf n'Quaff.
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