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New I'm poo-pooing neither his intent nor the fact of his efforts.
(Link was a WaPo Opinion video, btw).

I'm attempting to place blame where it properly rests. Is it a bad thing that Russia tried to get Trump into office? Of course it is. But the fact remains that it was Americans who ultimately put him there and it is they who must take responsibility. Russia could only encourage people to vote for him overtly and covertly. It took actual Americans to put him in the White House.

Your insistence that "if not for Russia and Comey ..." is equally disconcerting to me. The arguments you make are not compelling. Take the "millions dumped into the NRA" for example. I've no doubt that was done. But what did it ultimately accomplish? Ads were purchased that influenced gullible Americans who then went out and voted for Trump.

The dirt we both believe Putin has on Trump didn't help Trump get elected. It absolutely influences what Trump has done (and will do - see for example Rusal) as President, but that hardly helped him win the election. He won because stupid, gullible Americans have as much voice in how we are governed as everyone else. Without those gullible American troglodytes, Putin's attempts at influence would have failed miserably.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
Expand Edited by mmoffitt Aug. 3, 2018, 12:20:17 PM EDT
New Re: I'm poo-pooing neither his intent nor the fact of his efforts.
It took actual Americans to put him in the White House.


It is, also too, a GOP intent on restricting voting rights to only their supporters. And there is good evidence that that's a big factor in why they keep winning when their policies are unpopular.

Your insistence on blaming "stupid" American voters while rarely if ever recognizing that millions of Americans are prevented from voting makes your position easy to dismiss.

If it were just "stupid" Americans then there would be no need for voter ID laws and restricted voting hours and under-provisioned voting precincts that drive up voting times and on and on and on. They're restricting voting rights because they know, and we know, that it's the only way they can keep power.

Quit punching down.

Direct your ire at the GOP and Trump and his Minions. Spend more of your calories and dollars working to defeat them.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I'm not punching down, I'm punching the idiots responsible for this.
Namely, anyone who has ever voted for a Republican within the last sixty years! How did it come to pass that Republicans are (as you rightly point out) able to gerrymander, restrict voting rights, come up with bullshit voter id laws, etc., in the first place? Because stupid Americans voted for the Republican assholes (and some Democrats who supported Republican Lite policies - anyone come to mind?) who came up with all of that crap.

I want Trump (and especially his daughter - God, I think I despise her even more than I despise His Orangeness Himself) to go down in flames. But for that to happen, Democrats have got to stop blaming the Russians and Comey for Hillary's loss. It is a losing argument. Democrats need look no further than the Bronx to see how to win and win big. But continuing to blame Comey and the Russians for Hillary's loss is going to cause them to dig in their heels and show back up in November. The goal is to never have them show up again and Trump's already done enough to discourage them and will hopefully do more. But classifying them as "poor, witless victims of Russia" is only inciting them to vote again. Nobody wants that. You cannot enlighten them. You cannot expect them to ever be decent people. They are a subspecies of humanity who, in a just world, would never have had the right to vote in the first place. In short, they are and always will be Republicans.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New You think Ocasio-Cortez would have won in Indiana?
--

Drew
New I *know* she'd have had a better chance than Hillary or any other establishment Democrat.
Which battle do you want to fight? The one you might win or the one where you're dead in the water, right out of the gate? I'm sure Scott will say, "But, but, but Obama won Indiana in 2008 and you said he wouldn't." That actually fortifies my point. WHY did he win in Indiana? Because significant numbers of Hoosiers were duped into thinking they were voting for a Cortez and got yan Republican Lite DLC approved Democrat and what do you think happened in 2012?
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New There's a big difference between recognizing what caused Hillary's "loss"
(she did get nearly 3M more votes than Donnie)

and a campaign strategy.

We have good, inspiring candidates, we have good issues, we have enthusiasm and funding and infrastructure to win big in November.

Nobody that I know of is campaigning by only saying "Vote for Me because James Comey was a narcissistic monster as FBI director!11 Vote for Me because Donald Trump is a narcissistic monster and a Traitor!!11". Most candidates don't say anything like that at all. It wouldn't make sense. Nobody's running for FBI director or President this fall.

:-/

Recognizing that Comey threw the election to Trump, and that Vlad and his Minions did lots of illegal things with the enthusiastic support and assistance of Trump and the GOP, doesn't mean that that's how people are campaigning or that that's the only thing they will work on once they're elected.

E.g.:

MEET JENNIFER

“I believe public service is about working every day to make people’s lives better. That’s why I ran to represent our community in the State Senate, and that’s why I’m running for Congress.”

Senator Jennifer Wexton has been serving the people of Northern Virginia for almost two decades, as a prosecutor, an advocate for children, and as a legislator focusing on issues of concern to families.


Wexton has a great chance to defeat the odious Comstock in November.

And, yes, you are punching down. You spend much more of your time here beating up on Hillary (who isn't running for anything) than you do beating up on Trump and the GOP. Lately, you've spent much more time beating up on voters than you have on discussing non-purity-pony ideas for winning.

It's really, really easy to be a critic. It's really, really easy to write off people as being "stupid" or too set in their ways to vote in their (and their children's) best interest. But doing that isn't going to make things better.

I'm a big fan of trying to make things better, myself. A big part of that, for me, is doing everything possible so that more people in the USA can vote. Not beating up on voters...

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Which raindrop caused the flood?
They all did.

If our options are really as limited as you present, then our choices are:

1) Get rid of Russian interference
2) Get rid of Americans

I prefer the former.
--

Drew
New if we were not so intent on interfering in other countries internal affairs and elections
perhaps they would not be as interested in muddying ours.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
New Reagan's election was the raindrop that caused the flood.
We've had unbroken Republican rule since that sickening day in November, 1980. You can claim that Clinton and Obama were "better" than Reagan, Bush, Bush and Trump, but you cannot argue that they didn't all implement Republican policies.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Yeah, PPACA and Lilly Ledbetter and Clean Power and 54.5 MPG and all the rest are GOP Policies.
Words have meaning even when they're inconvenient to your argument...

Cheers,
Scott.
New Don't forget ending welfare as we know it
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
New I said incrementally better.
You cited a Republican policy! The PPACA was Romney's healthcare plan. We also got termination of Glass Stegall, Presidentially ordered assassinations (Americans, too!), NAFTA, Riegel-Neal, Bank and hedge fund bailouts galore, telecom deregulation and a balanced budget on the back of social programs. You were saying?
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
Expand Edited by mmoffitt Aug. 4, 2018, 07:44:03 AM EDT
New Rmoney signed a Massachusetts Democrats plan.
Wikipedia:

Legislation

In Fall 2005, the House and Senate each passed health care insurance reform bills. The legislature made a number of changes to Governor Romney's original proposal, including expanding MassHealth (Medicaid and SCHIP) coverage to low-income children and restoring funding for public health programs. The most controversial change was the addition of a provision which requires firms with 11 or more workers that do not provide "fair and reasonable" health coverage to their workers to pay an annual penalty. This contribution, initially $295 annually per worker, is intended to equalize the free care pool charges imposed on employers who do and do not cover their workers.

On April 12, 2006, Governor Romney signed the health legislation.[21] He vetoed eight sections of the health care legislation, including the controversial employer assessment.[22] He vetoed provisions providing dental benefits to poor residents on the Medicaid program, and providing health coverage to senior and disabled legal immigrants not eligible for federal Medicaid.[23] The legislature promptly overrode six of the eight gubernatorial section vetoes, on May 4, 2006, and by mid-June 2006 had overridden the remaining two.[24]


I was saying that words have meaning. They do.

Rmoney signed the bill because it would have passed anyway over his veto (as the over-riding of his section vetoes indicated). As the article indicates, expiration of various state wavers meant that the state had to pass something and the something they passed was pretty good.

The political parties are not the same. You don't get more progressive policies by beating up on the more progressive party. You don't get more progressive policies by demanding purity.

Pure legislation doesn't pass legislatures. All (significant) legislation is a mass of compromises. Nitpicking and refusing to consider the context of passing something as complex as the PPACA makes you seem like a crank sometimes.

That's just one example.

Stop it. Spend more of your efforts beating up on Trump and (actual) GOP policies. It will do much more to create the future you claim to want...

(sigh)

Cheers,
Scott.
     Rand and Another, help me out with this. - (mmoffitt) - (17)
         "But its enemy is not Russia, it is the gullibility of the American people." - (malraux)
         Comey was the big factor. The evidence is clear. - (Another Scott) - (14)
             I'm poo-pooing neither his intent nor the fact of his efforts. - (mmoffitt) - (13)
                 Re: I'm poo-pooing neither his intent nor the fact of his efforts. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                     I'm not punching down, I'm punching the idiots responsible for this. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                         You think Ocasio-Cortez would have won in Indiana? -NT - (drook) - (1)
                             I *know* she'd have had a better chance than Hillary or any other establishment Democrat. - (mmoffitt)
                         There's a big difference between recognizing what caused Hillary's "loss" - (Another Scott)
                 Which raindrop caused the flood? - (drook) - (7)
                     if we were not so intent on interfering in other countries internal affairs and elections - (boxley) - (1)
                         Amen - (dmcarls)
                     Reagan's election was the raindrop that caused the flood. - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                         Yeah, PPACA and Lilly Ledbetter and Clean Power and 54.5 MPG and all the rest are GOP Policies. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                             Don't forget ending welfare as we know it -NT - (boxley)
                             I said incrementally better. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                 Rmoney signed a Massachusetts Democrats plan. - (Another Scott)
         Changing 80K specific votes would have changed election results. -NT - (a6l6e6x)

A base libel on toxic waste dumps everywhere.
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