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New A large increment :-P
--

Drew
New Real change doesn't come incrementally. TFP.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Actual Progress is Always Incremental.
The entire history of this country, and probably the entire history of humanity, tells us that.

Is there some perfect piece of legislation or social contact that you can point to that was perfect from the beginning and was never revised? Some non-tyrrannical revolution and revolutionary government that wasn't revised over time? (The caveats are to cover the Khmer Rouge who I assume you wouldn't cite as a "real change" to be emulated...) Even the 10 Commandments were revised before they finally took effect. ;-)

Sheesh.

Cheers,
Scott.
New These fifteen [crash] ... Ten ... These ten commandments ...
--

Drew
New Some counter-examples to your argument.
1. The Second French Revolution.
2. The American Revolution.
3. The February Revolution in Tsarist Russia.

Were all of these revised later? Of course. I never suggested "real change" was never to be revised. I only said that real change didn't come about through incremental changes. I hope we can agree that my three examples above resulted in "real change."

Now, you point to something, heck, anything that was incremental about those three counter-examples. ;0)

Moreover, in the case of Russia, do you think the Duma under the Tsar would ever have gotten the same amount of change from their incremental work if that work had been allowed to continue as the February Revolution accomplished in short order?
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Meh. I doubt that American slaves would say that the Revolution was "real change"...
Similarly for women. And similarly for people who didn't own property and weren't eligible to vote.

On the rest of your examples, no time to check.

The point is, for every example of "Real Change" that you can point to, I can point to people who lived through it and saw none of it. "Real Change" for them came later. Progress is incremental.

"Meet the new boss - Same as the old boss"...

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I'd call "Ending a Monarchy" a pretty big real change. YMMV.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New How so?
Franklin and Washington and lots and lots of the Founders were extremely wealthy men.

Women couldn't vote.

Blacks were enslaved.

People who didn't own land couldn't vote.

Rich white guys were running the show before the Revolution.

Rich white guys were running the show after the Revolution.

Americans had elected representatives before the Revolution.

Americans had elected representatives after the Revolution.

Etc.

Don't get me wrong - the American Revolution was a Big Deal™. But holding it up as an example of Real Change™ is arguing semantics.

Politics change, what's politically possible changes, progress is incremental.

Refusing to accept important incremental progress because it doesn't go far - when the alternative is nothing - is shooting yourself (and those below you in the social strata) in the foot.

Purity kills.

Cheers,
Scott.
New And incremental change poses no threat to your status, right? That's really why it''s better, no?
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New (sigh)
I'm not a 1%er who only hangs out with other 1%ers and lives in a gated compound.

Life is much better for me when kids I encounter are happy and see a bright future for themselves and I don't have to worry about whether they're stoned on "bath salts" and "crocodile" and meth and will mug me for my phone and credit cards. Kids with too much time on their hands (un- and under-employed, not in school, etc.) are too often a threat to themselves, their future, and society in general.

Life is much better for me when the transportation system works efficiently and I don't have to worry about choking to death in a smoke-filled tunnel. Cars stuck in traffic damage the environment as well.

Life is much better for me when I can make economic decisions about changing jobs based on something more than "will I have health insurance at all"?

Etc.

I'm willing to lose a tiny bit of relative status - via higher taxes - to pay for those things. That is an excellent trade in my eyes. And that has almost nothing to do with the reality that progress is incremental.

It's the 1%ers who aren't willing to give up any status. You know this.

Your fantasy of some Glorious Second American Revolution that will [missing step 2] and then we'll all live in Paradise Society [except for the Clintons and any previous member of the DLC] is a just a fantasy. It's far, far more likely that the 1%ers will still be on top after the GSAR than the other way around. I'm not going to be losing my private plane when the GSAR comes.

The Founding Fathers were rich white guys....

Meet the new boss; same as the old boss....

You know all this.

Cheers,
Scott.
New The American "Revolution"
This was more in the nature of a hostile business takeover. John Hancock on why he signed the Declaration of Independence so large, "I want King George to see he has a bad debt on his hands without his spectacles".

It was disorganized, incompetent, corrupt and much despised by the people. It was such a mess the next generation spent a whole lot of time and effort writing "The True Story".

In "The Great Strategist" General Washington's own words, "I know nothing about strategy". That's OK, the strategy was planned in Paris by generals who knew what they were doing.

Cornwallis was very well situated against Washington's rag tag army, but vulnerable from the sea. He surrendered because he learned the French war fleet was coming fast, leaving him too little time to get his troops back on the ships and get out of there. It was the least disastrous move he had available.

England called it quits because they needed the money and armies for the other wars they were involved in at the time. This one seemed to be the least important - and they still had Canada.

And, at the end of it all, the folks who had been on the top in the colonies, were still on the top - they just rid themselves of their bosses in England, that's all.

If you doubt any of this (and a whole shitload more), check it out at the Smithsonian Institution. They have the evidence - and have freely published it in Smithsonian Magazine, to which I've had a subscription for 30 years or so.
New I don't have any illusions about the American Revolution, but see one-liner above.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New So was dumping Ukraine’s Putin stooge Yanukovitch that you thought was undemocratic at the time
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New And which country colluded and fake news and funded that action?
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
New ignore dupe
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Expand Edited by boxley Aug. 4, 2018, 07:40:38 PM EDT
Expand Edited by boxley Aug. 4, 2018, 07:42:31 PM EDT
New Who's he dupe we're supposed to ignore?
Is that you, Box?
New not me, reading page 613 family circle cookbook. Have a box of apples and am too cheap
to buy pie crusts. Really $2 for a 9inch shell? I am really good with fillings, maybe the crusts will not be a disaster this time.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
New Nice. My grandfather taught me the 2 knives trick (but he used table knives).
New Hey, I have that book!
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
     For $DEITY's sake! No. Just ... NO. - (mmoffitt) - (35)
         Surely, like the Koch brothers, there's a way to do it under the table. - (a6l6e6x) - (7)
             Indeed. The worst sort of taint. She lost to Drumpf! -NT - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                 Not to mention meetings on tarmac. -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (5)
                     And I hear that she maybe didn't pay a tip once, also too. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                         It allowed for the worst of interpretations. - (a6l6e6x) - (3)
                             They made crap up about her (and just about every other elected Democrat). - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                 Powerful, persuasive, appealing, one outta 3 ain't bad -NT - (boxley)
                                 She's good at making women in politics powerful? How? Through wedlock? - (mmoffitt)
         Yeah, I mean, like... - (Another Scott) - (1)
             ROFL! - (mmoffitt)
         You and boxley should form a support group. -NT - (rcareaga) - (24)
             yeah, support anybody but clinton group :-) -NT - (boxley) - (23)
                 This country would be far better off today - (rcareaga) - (22)
                     You may be wrong . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                     Nit. s/far better/incrementally better. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (20)
                         A large increment :-P -NT - (drook) - (19)
                             Real change doesn't come incrementally. TFP. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (18)
                                 Actual Progress is Always Incremental. - (Another Scott) - (17)
                                     These fifteen [crash] ... Ten ... These ten commandments ... -NT - (drook)
                                     Some counter-examples to your argument. - (mmoffitt) - (15)
                                         Meh. I doubt that American slaves would say that the Revolution was "real change"... - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                             I'd call "Ending a Monarchy" a pretty big real change. YMMV. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                 How so? - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                     And incremental change poses no threat to your status, right? That's really why it''s better, no? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                         (sigh) - (Another Scott)
                                         The American "Revolution" - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                             I don't have any illusions about the American Revolution, but see one-liner above. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                         So was dumping Ukraine’s Putin stooge Yanukovitch that you thought was undemocratic at the time -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (7)
                                             And which country colluded and fake news and funded that action? -NT - (boxley)
                                             ignore dupe -NT - (boxley) - (5)
                                                 Who's he dupe we're supposed to ignore? - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                                                     not me, reading page 613 family circle cookbook. Have a box of apples and am too cheap - (boxley) - (3)
                                                         Crusts are easy - (drook) - (2)
                                                             Nice. My grandfather taught me the 2 knives trick (but he used table knives). -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                             Hey, I have that book! -NT - (boxley)

I found Soylent to be a punishingly boring, joyless product.
146 ms