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New Eh.
Removing the monuments isn't going to suddenly fix the ever present racism in a lot of people (note: that includes the vaunted Northern peoples as well).

A good buddy of mine, I think, has a much better proposal. Beside each Confederate monument, erect a monument of a slave in chains.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Three-for-three
"Yes, this is wrong, but they're not opposing it the right way."

"This isn't a perfect solution, so they shouldn't do it."

"Instead of this thing they're doing, it would be better to do this other thing that is far more expensive, logistically impossible, and likely to meet even more opposition."


Any other verses from the "Don't Fuck With My Privilege" songbook?
--

Drew
New Move to strike. Incoherent.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New OK, I'm done
--

Drew
New Only to you
He was quite clear.
New "Incoherent"? What's more incoherent than trying strategy after strategy, only to...
...try a new equally bad one when each of them is easily beaten?

If you keep sounding like a White Supremacist Statue Hugger, don't be too surprised when people after a while conclude that you are one.

You're getting close to where if you don't want people to think you are, it's up to you to prove you aren't.

One good way to at least start on that would be to stop sounding like one.
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New You guys really need to drop the "privilege" meme.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Which part of White Supremacist Statue Hugger says anything about "privilege"?!?
I don't give a fuck about your "privilege", which is why I haven't mentioned it with a word.

I just don't like your being a White Supremacist Statue Hugger, and on the off-chance that you're just by sheer coincidence -- Wow, talk about bad luck, man! -- playing one so convincingly, I thought I'd let you know that that's what you're doing.

Unless, you know, you were just writing too un-guardedly and letting it shine through.
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New Oh, now I'm a White Supremacist.
And *that* is the problem. Better round up the people to tear down the Lincoln memorial then.

While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate4.htm

Hypocrisy's fun, isn't it?

Edit: For clarity, I know a lot of folks posting here are ADHD. That quote was from Abraham Lincoln. HTH. There were no good guys.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
Expand Edited by mmoffitt Aug. 16, 2017, 10:19:08 AM EDT
New "There were no good guys."
Position A: I don't think races are equal, but we still shouldn't treat them the way we have been. [Ends slavery, fights a war to defend the decision.]

Position B: I believe so strongly in equality that I will oppose anything I deem to be a half measure. Immediate, radical change or nothing! [Criticizes everyone trying to make incremental improvement.]


Hmm, which position gets more done? Which is more a "good guy"?
--

Drew
New Buy a history book.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Care to narrow that down a bit?
--

Drew
New Re: Care to narrow that down a bit?
Okay.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New You're a day late and a dollar short.
Quite literally about a day late: Yeah, I said that in the earlier post, the one you replied to gibbering about "privilege", which hadn't previously been mentioned at all in this sub-thread. Did you reply to that one without reading even the slightest part of it, or what?

So, if you claim not to be a White Supremacist, then the question implied by Drew's observation remains unanswered: If you aren't one, then how come you're arguing exactly their arguments for them?
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New No mention of privilege? Re-read Drew's post. Here, I'll help you, since you obviously need it.
Emphasis Mine for the Comprehension Impaired. That'd be you, Christian

"Yes, this is wrong, but they're not opposing it the right way."

"This isn't a perfect solution, so they shouldn't do it."

"Instead of this thing they're doing, it would be better to do this other thing that is far more expensive, logistically impossible, and likely to meet even more opposition."

Any other verses from the "Don't Fuck With My Privilege" songbook

http://forum.iwethey.org/forum/post/419670/

"Did I reply to that one without reading even the slightest part of it, or what?" What. Since the line I referenced in my response was the last fucking line of the post (you know, the one you said didn't exist; who is that didn't read before replying?) I would have thought it clear that I'd read the entire fucking thing before responding. If this the way Europeans think, no fucking wonder Britain voted to leave.

The rest of Drew's "points" are not worth answering, but since you insist ...

Point: "Yes, this is wrong, but they're not opposing it the right way."
A: WTF is this supposed to mean? I suggest that the removal of the monuments could be done in a more orderly fashion with a substantially less likelihood of violence LIKE, SAY, THE WAY BALTIMORE DID THE VERY NEXT FUCKING DAY and this is somehow a White Supremacist argument? Are you and he really that thick?

Point: "This isn't a perfect solution, so they shouldn't do it."
A: Where the FUCK did I say they shouldn't do it? Go ahead. Try to find it. I'll wait.

Point: "Instead of this thing they're doing, it would be better to do this other thing that is far more expensive, logistically impossible, and likely to meet even more opposition."
A: This is such a stupid, ill-informed statement that I hardly think it needs to be answered, but, again, you insist. "Logistically impossible" eh? Pretty clearly not impossible. Since Baltimore did what I suggested, by Drew's "logic" that makes the Mayor and City Council of Baltimore "White Sumpremacists", right?

Any more baseless claims you want to make?
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New "Read me in my posts", as someone used to say.
Put your "privilege, yadda yadda" response to Drew in a, oh I don't know, how about a reply to a post by Drew, fuckwit?

Sheesh. To quote myself:
--=<<{([ I ])}>>=-- don't give a fuck about your "privilege", which is why --=<<{([ I ])}>>=-- haven't mentioned it with a word.
There, slight emphasis added for the truly impaired of reading... Which, no, I don't think events here indicate being me.

HTH!
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New It's great to have you back.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Baltimore isn't constrained by the state laws about removing monuments.
It really is different in places where the laws were changed in the 1950s (or 1920s) to explicitly make it nearly impossible to remove the trappings of white supremacy.

"Well, then change the law!!1"

Yes, but when the other party controls the legislature via gerrymandering and voter suppression, and the courts through reactionary appointees, and the laws are so difficult to change, then there is nothing wrong with the people making their views known through protests and agitation. Protests are part of the process of getting the laws changed.

Sometimes it's appropriate for people to take things into their own hands (like Bree Newsome did). Sometimes it isn't.

I don't have a problem with Confederate memorials being (peacefully) removed by public action if the powers-that-be refuse to do so in a timely manner. Especially after Mother Emanuel AME Church and Charlottesville. They are overt symbols of oppression and need to go.

(I recognize that there can and often are problems with going around the law. But there are times when that is necessary. Was removal of the Berlin Wall by the people a bad thing?)

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: ... the other party controls the legislature via gerrymandering and voter suppression.
I submit the more important factor is the fact that "the other party" consistently got more votes and that is the real problem. It is the people. The statues have been up for 100 years or so and in that time a majority wanted them left up. That's a people problem. In many ways, we are the evil of the world that is properly represented by Trump and the Republican Party. While it is more comfortable to blame "gerrymandering" and "voter suppression" and various other "dirty tricks", the fact remains that it is We, the People of the United States who are in large measure what's wrong with the country.

A handful of years before he died, I was driving my father to the VA in Asheville. It's a lovely part of the country and he loved it. But less so as he aged. He was looking out the window at his beloved mountains and after a while he said, "This is such lovely country." I replied, "Yes, it is." Then he said, "It's too bad the people fuck it up so horribly." That's as true today as it was when he said it.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New (One arrives at such a conclusion fairly: only after it marinates-well. I wot.)
Naturally I can’t recall some point-in-time when I came to that realization, though my early-on experiences with My [Bircher] Gramma© likely made the Noticing come earlier than …
in most (actual Observers of ..their/our!-fish-bowl?) Believe it requires many years of marinating in the stew of daily trash-talk from This specimen, inane vapors from That candidate,
just plain Nastiness from THAT one

Before a One concludes (just as simply-said as your Father’s summary) … that, No I am Not just some misanthrope lookin’ fer feckless confirmation to add to other biases:
I Am Amidst a largely hypocritical, oft massively Iggerant of-all-aspects of history/local or Worldwide etc. Tribe(s) of Know-nothings who Like It just that way
(cf. all the bitchin SIgs to that effect.)




I also had an Aunt (on Father’s side) a Teacher of tads, who had the Common Sense to read-up on ’Socialism/Communism’ in the ’30s, and deem that
~ just maybe in that —> Direction lies a saner future than THIS
{she had not the words Clusterfuck-denouement-of Vulture Capitalismo then, or even later, but..} ‘Auntie Flo always was My Fav Auntie..


Carrion..

(Sometimes it right-next-to you) in the next voting booth.. ...
New Yes, Baltimore did it the next day. I wonder why ...
--

Drew
New I've withdrawn from being an advocate of violent revolution.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New eh? yer off the flogging committee then,
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
New Really?
You (we) don't fight an evil by putting something beside it to somehow compensate. We get rid of the evil as best we can.

Should Georgia have put up a statue of one of Stalin's victims beside his statue, or should they have simply removed the statue?

But Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia's pro-Western president, said he wanted the statue moved into a local museum that devoted to the Soviet dictator.

He argued that the late dictator was too closely associated with what he called the "Soviet occupation of Georgia".

"A memorial to Stalin has no place in the Georgia of the 21st century," he said.

A statue commemorating the victims of Georgia's short and disastrous war with Russia in 2008 would take the Stalin statue's place, he added.

Giorgy Baramidze, Georgia's minister for European integration, explained that calls for the Stalin statue's removal had multiplied since the war against Russia.

"The presence of that monument in the centre of Gori was especially shameful after the Russian aggression... by a state that is a legal successor to the Empire once created by Stalin," he said.

"Our historical ideals should be people who tried to build a normal civilised country rather than bloodthirsty hangmen."


Why isn't that reasoning good enough for the present-day USA?

Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a few minutes - someone who lived under Jim Crow...

Cheers,
Scott.
New Sorry. Not enough words on my part.
I should have qualified that with, "If it's impossible to move the statues to a museum, then my buddy's idea is a better one."
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New No it's not
It is simply a statue for the racists to point and laugh at while admiring their hero.
     Monumental frolic - (rcareaga) - (68)
         Think you included the wrong linky - (drook) - (7)
             Thanks; fixed - (rcareaga) - (4)
                 Hadn't thought of that - (drook) - (3)
                     Is there any place on earth where the victors didn't destroy the symbols of the conquered? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                         Other than the entire southern U.S. you mean? - (drook) - (1)
                             You mentioned it below, but the Vietnam War Memorial is an obvious example. -NT - (mmoffitt)
             I think those ones in the middle east are a different basket. - (static) - (1)
                 Yeah, I've figured out my intuition - (drook)
         My thoughts. - (mmoffitt) - (56)
             Do they have monuments to those who died in wars they lost? - (drook) - (55)
                 I heard a report on NPR that the cops are looking for the perps, and intend to charge them. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (38)
                     They should handle it the way they did Bree Newsome. - (Another Scott) - (37)
                         "Toxic" is a bit strong. - (mmoffitt) - (36)
                             Malice? Or civil disobedience? - (drook) - (5)
                                 Really? Amendment 13 much? - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                                     I was thinking more 1960s than 1790s - (drook) - (3)
                                         The relative effectiveness of changing a "wrong" law vs breaking the law. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                             Did the law get changed before or after a war was fought? - (drook) - (1)
                                                 So, changing the law works? Or it doesn't (as you previously stated)? I'm confused. And tired. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                             Not really. - (Another Scott) - (29)
                                 Eh. - (mmoffitt) - (25)
                                     Three-for-three - (drook) - (21)
                                         Move to strike. Incoherent. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (20)
                                             OK, I'm done -NT - (drook)
                                             Only to you - (crazy)
                                             "Incoherent"? What's more incoherent than trying strategy after strategy, only to... - (CRConrad) - (17)
                                                 You guys really need to drop the "privilege" meme. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (16)
                                                     Which part of White Supremacist Statue Hugger says anything about "privilege"?!? - (CRConrad) - (15)
                                                         Oh, now I'm a White Supremacist. - (mmoffitt) - (14)
                                                             "There were no good guys." - (drook) - (3)
                                                                 Buy a history book. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                     Care to narrow that down a bit? -NT - (drook) - (1)
                                                                         Re: Care to narrow that down a bit? - (mmoffitt)
                                                             You're a day late and a dollar short. - (CRConrad) - (9)
                                                                 No mention of privilege? Re-read Drew's post. Here, I'll help you, since you obviously need it. - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                                                                     "Read me in my posts", as someone used to say. - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                         It's great to have you back. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                     Baltimore isn't constrained by the state laws about removing monuments. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                                         Re: ... the other party controls the legislature via gerrymandering and voter suppression. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                             (One arrives at such a conclusion fairly: only after it marinates-well. I wot.) - (Ashton)
                                                                     Yes, Baltimore did it the next day. I wonder why ... -NT - (drook) - (2)
                                                                         I've withdrawn from being an advocate of violent revolution. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                             eh? yer off the flogging committee then, -NT - (boxley)
                                     Really? - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                         Sorry. Not enough words on my part. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                             No it's not - (crazy)
                                 local controls - (rcareaga)
                                 Impossible? Bah, nothing is impossible. - (CRConrad)
                                 Or, perhaps even better... - (CRConrad)
                 Try ... the 'Korean War' for a negative conclusion.. - (Ashton) - (1)
                     that was a tie and still isnt over -NT - (boxley)
                 Actually, there are some - (scoenye) - (4)
                     And for something on the wrong side of the tracks and closer to current events - (scoenye) - (3)
                         Passing strange, this all.. - (Ashton) - (2)
                             The monument was "dual use" from the get go - (scoenye) - (1)
                                 Belatedly.. this manifestly-schizoid chain of events may illuminate just why - (Ashton)
                 yes in every town square altho to be fair it also includes all lives lost in all wars - (boxley)
                 Every town and village in the UK has a war memorial - (pwhysall) - (7)
                     Aussie ones are about remembering the fallen, too. -NT - (static)
                     We've got those, too - (drook)
                     The clear intent of the things here can be inferred from the timing. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                         That Drum link: yes, that -NT - (drook) - (1)
                             Indeed, graph needs words; Drum has them. -NT - (Ashton)
                         curious, have you actually seen "birth of a nation"? -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                             Yup. Saw it in class in HS. -NT - (Another Scott)
         Don't know when that statue was erected, but the Robert E. Lee one in C'ville was 1924. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
             And into the present one. ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt)
         PS: Just NOW I hear [his audio] Prez. Orange declaim - (Ashton)

Not sure if that makes your statement true or false...
173 ms