Post #419,655
8/15/17 12:05:58 PM
8/15/17 12:05:58 PM
|
My thoughts.
It didn't enrage me. My recent determination that flyovers and Southerners are not worth the revolution I'd been calling for since I was ten left me with virtually no feeling regarding this episode at all. Which, I confess, felt a bit odd. I thought I should be upset about this, (for reasons I'll soon explain) but wasn't.
My next thought was, "Well, that's Durham." Very much a University town (home of Duke University) and I wondered, "How many of the folks assembled for that are actually from Durham?" That, too, didn't really matter to me.
I felt like I should be troubled by this due to some nostalgic memories of my youth. At nine I'd been in the Soviet Union and marveled at the fact that each town had monuments to their war dead. Growing up in Southern California in the 1960's, I didn't see much, if any, of that thing at home. So when we'd make our annual pilgrimage to relatives in North Carolina each summer, I used to enjoy looking at the statues that seemed almost as prevalent as the monuments in the USSR, reading their inscriptions and then going to a library to learn more about the towns, the people represented by the statues and, when possible, the names listed on the monuments. Some of those were doubtless my ancestors. But my final thought on the current episode was, "Well, let them have their fun. The South of my childhood no longer exists, if it ever did."
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,657
8/15/17 1:29:41 PM
8/15/17 1:29:41 PM
|
Do they have monuments to those who died in wars they lost?
You could argue that's what the Vietnam Wall is, though we didn't technically "lose". Because we were never technically at war. (Yes, politics is stupid.)
|
Post #419,659
8/15/17 1:33:25 PM
8/15/17 1:33:25 PM
|
I heard a report on NPR that the cops are looking for the perps, and intend to charge them.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,660
8/15/17 3:17:44 PM
8/15/17 3:17:44 PM
|
They should handle it the way they did Bree Newsome.
She was arrested and charged, but the charges were later dropped and the case was dismissed.
These statues are toxic and need to go.
My $0.02.
Cheers, Scott.
|
Post #419,661
8/15/17 3:21:01 PM
8/15/17 3:21:01 PM
|
"Toxic" is a bit strong.
I already said I don't have strong feelings about this, but vandalism is vandalism. You want to remove them, fine. But why condone malice?
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,662
8/15/17 3:27:08 PM
8/15/17 3:27:08 PM
|
Malice? Or civil disobedience?
When the law is wrong, people of conviction have stood up and publicly broken the law to bring attention to it.
I'm sure plenty of "reasonable" people agreed the law was wrong but said the "right way" to fight it was to change the law. Those people are wrong. It doesn't work.
|
Post #419,664
8/15/17 4:16:22 PM
8/15/17 4:16:22 PM
|
Really? Amendment 13 much?
It took passage of Amendment 13 for Grant's slaves to finally be freed.
HTH.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,666
8/15/17 4:22:20 PM
8/15/17 4:22:20 PM
|
I was thinking more 1960s than 1790s
What on earth are you talking about?
|
Post #419,669
8/15/17 4:26:23 PM
8/15/17 4:29:58 PM
|
The relative effectiveness of changing a "wrong" law vs breaking the law.
Hell, the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free Mrs. U.S. Grant's slaves. The North's victory also didn't free Mrs. U.S. Grant's slaves. What freed her slaves? Changing the law.
That's exactly counter to your claim, "I'm sure plenty of "reasonable" people agreed the law was wrong but said the "right way" to fight it was to change the law. Those people are wrong. It doesn't work." If changing the law "doesn't work", I wonder when or even IF Mrs. U.S. Grant's slaves would have ever been freed.
Clear now?
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
Edited by mmoffitt
Aug. 15, 2017, 04:29:58 PM EDT
|
Post #419,672
8/15/17 4:30:13 PM
8/15/17 4:30:13 PM
|
Did the law get changed before or after a war was fought?
And in the 60s, did the law change (again) before or after thousands of arrests for civil disobedience?
I could have said (though you'd just find a different way to disagree) that only advocating for changing the law doesn't work. Unless you stir some shit up, the law isn't* going to get changed.
* Usually.
|
Post #419,675
8/15/17 4:33:14 PM
8/15/17 4:33:15 PM
|
So, changing the law works? Or it doesn't (as you previously stated)? I'm confused. And tired.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,665
8/15/17 4:16:44 PM
8/15/17 4:16:44 PM
|
Not really.
TheAtlantic: In New Orleans, Mayor Mitch Landrieu recently hauled down three public monuments to the Confederacy and to white supremacy. “These statues were a part of … terrorism as much as a burning cross on someone’s lawn; they were erected purposefully to send a strong message to all who walked in their shadows about who was still in charge in this city,” he explained. Landrieu's right. Virginia has state laws that make it impossible for any locality to remove many of these "monuments": If such are erected, it shall be unlawful for the authorities of the locality, or any other person or persons, to disturb or interfere with any monuments or memorials so erected, or to prevent its citizens from taking proper measures and exercising proper means for the protection, preservation and care of same. For purposes of this section, “disturb or interfere with” includes removal of, damaging or defacing monuments or memorials, or, in the case of the War Between the States, the placement of Union markings or monuments on previously designated Confederate memorials or the placement of Confederate markings or monuments on previously designated Union memorials. These statues aren't just heroic images of people from long ago. They're part and parcel of institutionalized white supremacy and they need to go. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
|
Post #419,667
8/15/17 4:22:36 PM
8/15/17 4:22:36 PM
|
Eh.
Removing the monuments isn't going to suddenly fix the ever present racism in a lot of people (note: that includes the vaunted Northern peoples as well).
A good buddy of mine, I think, has a much better proposal. Beside each Confederate monument, erect a monument of a slave in chains.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,670
8/15/17 4:26:54 PM
8/15/17 4:26:54 PM
|
Three-for-three
"Yes, this is wrong, but they're not opposing it the right way."
"This isn't a perfect solution, so they shouldn't do it."
"Instead of this thing they're doing, it would be better to do this other thing that is far more expensive, logistically impossible, and likely to meet even more opposition."
Any other verses from the "Don't Fuck With My Privilege" songbook?
|
Post #419,671
8/15/17 4:27:48 PM
8/15/17 4:27:48 PM
|
Move to strike. Incoherent.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,673
8/15/17 4:31:05 PM
8/15/17 4:31:05 PM
|
OK, I'm done
|
Post #419,700
8/15/17 9:58:34 PM
8/15/17 9:58:34 PM
|
Only to you
|
Post #419,711
8/16/17 6:39:07 AM
8/16/17 6:39:07 AM
|
"Incoherent"? What's more incoherent than trying strategy after strategy, only to...
...try a new equally bad one when each of them is easily beaten?
If you keep sounding like a White Supremacist Statue Hugger, don't be too surprised when people after a while conclude that you are one.
You're getting close to where if you don't want people to think you are, it's up to you to prove you aren't.
One good way to at least start on that would be to stop sounding like one.
-- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
|
Post #419,717
8/16/17 8:25:06 AM
8/16/17 8:25:06 AM
|
You guys really need to drop the "privilege" meme.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,720
8/16/17 8:53:07 AM
8/16/17 8:53:07 AM
|
Which part of White Supremacist Statue Hugger says anything about "privilege"?!?
I don't give a fuck about your "privilege", which is why I haven't mentioned it with a word.
I just don't like your being a White Supremacist Statue Hugger, and on the off-chance that you're just by sheer coincidence -- Wow, talk about bad luck, man! -- playing one so convincingly, I thought I'd let you know that that's what you're doing.
Unless, you know, you were just writing too un-guardedly and letting it shine through.
-- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
|
Post #419,723
8/16/17 10:17:49 AM
8/16/17 10:19:08 AM
|
Oh, now I'm a White Supremacist.
And *that* is the problem. Better round up the people to tear down the Lincoln memorial then. While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate4.htmHypocrisy's fun, isn't it? Edit: For clarity, I know a lot of folks posting here are ADHD. That quote was from Abraham Lincoln. HTH. There were no good guys.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
Edited by mmoffitt
Aug. 16, 2017, 10:19:08 AM EDT
|
Post #419,728
8/16/17 11:00:13 AM
8/16/17 11:00:13 AM
|
"There were no good guys."
Position A: I don't think races are equal, but we still shouldn't treat them the way we have been. [Ends slavery, fights a war to defend the decision.]
Position B: I believe so strongly in equality that I will oppose anything I deem to be a half measure. Immediate, radical change or nothing! [Criticizes everyone trying to make incremental improvement.]
Hmm, which position gets more done? Which is more a "good guy"?
|
Post #419,736
8/16/17 11:55:00 AM
8/16/17 11:55:01 AM
|
Buy a history book.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,738
8/16/17 12:00:35 PM
8/16/17 12:00:35 PM
|
Care to narrow that down a bit?
|
Post #419,741
8/16/17 12:15:53 PM
8/16/17 12:15:53 PM
|
Re: Care to narrow that down a bit?
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,775
8/17/17 3:02:10 AM
8/17/17 3:02:10 AM
|
You're a day late and a dollar short.
Quite literally about a day late: Yeah, I said that in the earlier post, the one you replied to gibbering about "privilege", which hadn't previously been mentioned at all in this sub-thread. Did you reply to that one without reading even the slightest part of it, or what?
So, if you claim not to be a White Supremacist, then the question implied by Drew's observation remains unanswered: If you aren't one, then how come you're arguing exactly their arguments for them?
-- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
|
Post #419,785
8/17/17 8:39:30 AM
8/17/17 8:39:30 AM
|
No mention of privilege? Re-read Drew's post. Here, I'll help you, since you obviously need it.
Emphasis Mine for the Comprehension Impaired. That'd be you, Christian "Yes, this is wrong, but they're not opposing it the right way."
"This isn't a perfect solution, so they shouldn't do it."
"Instead of this thing they're doing, it would be better to do this other thing that is far more expensive, logistically impossible, and likely to meet even more opposition."
Any other verses from the "Don't Fuck With My Privilege" songbook http://forum.iwethey.org/forum/post/419670/"Did I reply to that one without reading even the slightest part of it, or what?" What. Since the line I referenced in my response was the last fucking line of the post (you know, the one you said didn't exist; who is that didn't read before replying?) I would have thought it clear that I'd read the entire fucking thing before responding. If this the way Europeans think, no fucking wonder Britain voted to leave. The rest of Drew's "points" are not worth answering, but since you insist ... Point: "Yes, this is wrong, but they're not opposing it the right way." A: WTF is this supposed to mean? I suggest that the removal of the monuments could be done in a more orderly fashion with a substantially less likelihood of violence LIKE, SAY, THE WAY BALTIMORE DID THE VERY NEXT FUCKING DAY and this is somehow a White Supremacist argument? Are you and he really that thick? Point: "This isn't a perfect solution, so they shouldn't do it." A: Where the FUCK did I say they shouldn't do it? Go ahead. Try to find it. I'll wait. Point: "Instead of this thing they're doing, it would be better to do this other thing that is far more expensive, logistically impossible, and likely to meet even more opposition." A: This is such a stupid, ill-informed statement that I hardly think it needs to be answered, but, again, you insist. "Logistically impossible" eh? Pretty clearly not impossible. Since Baltimore did what I suggested, by Drew's "logic" that makes the Mayor and City Council of Baltimore "White Sumpremacists", right? Any more baseless claims you want to make?
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,787
8/17/17 9:04:33 AM
8/17/17 9:04:33 AM
|
"Read me in my posts", as someone used to say.
Put your "privilege, yadda yadda" response to Drew in a, oh I don't know, how about a reply to a post by Drew, fuckwit?Sheesh. To quote myself: --=<<{([ I ])}>>=-- don't give a fuck about your "privilege", which is why --=<<{([ I ])}>>=-- haven't mentioned it with a word. There, slight emphasis added for the truly impaired of reading... Which, no, I don't think events here indicate being me. HTH!
-- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
|
Post #419,792
8/17/17 11:08:11 AM
8/17/17 11:08:11 AM
|
It's great to have you back.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,788
8/17/17 9:11:36 AM
8/17/17 9:11:36 AM
|
Baltimore isn't constrained by the state laws about removing monuments.
It really is different in places where the laws were changed in the 1950s (or 1920s) to explicitly make it nearly impossible to remove the trappings of white supremacy.
"Well, then change the law!!1"
Yes, but when the other party controls the legislature via gerrymandering and voter suppression, and the courts through reactionary appointees, and the laws are so difficult to change, then there is nothing wrong with the people making their views known through protests and agitation. Protests are part of the process of getting the laws changed.
Sometimes it's appropriate for people to take things into their own hands (like Bree Newsome did). Sometimes it isn't.
I don't have a problem with Confederate memorials being (peacefully) removed by public action if the powers-that-be refuse to do so in a timely manner. Especially after Mother Emanuel AME Church and Charlottesville. They are overt symbols of oppression and need to go.
(I recognize that there can and often are problems with going around the law. But there are times when that is necessary. Was removal of the Berlin Wall by the people a bad thing?)
My $0.02.
Cheers, Scott.
|
Post #419,793
8/17/17 11:21:01 AM
8/17/17 11:21:01 AM
|
Re: ... the other party controls the legislature via gerrymandering and voter suppression.
I submit the more important factor is the fact that "the other party" consistently got more votes and that is the real problem. It is the people. The statues have been up for 100 years or so and in that time a majority wanted them left up. That's a people problem. In many ways, we are the evil of the world that is properly represented by Trump and the Republican Party. While it is more comfortable to blame "gerrymandering" and "voter suppression" and various other "dirty tricks", the fact remains that it is We, the People of the United States who are in large measure what's wrong with the country.
A handful of years before he died, I was driving my father to the VA in Asheville. It's a lovely part of the country and he loved it. But less so as he aged. He was looking out the window at his beloved mountains and after a while he said, "This is such lovely country." I replied, "Yes, it is." Then he said, "It's too bad the people fuck it up so horribly." That's as true today as it was when he said it.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,795
8/17/17 4:15:32 PM
8/17/17 4:15:32 PM
|
(One arrives at such a conclusion fairly: only after it marinates-well. I wot.)
Naturally I can’t recall some point-in-time when I came to that realization, though my early-on experiences with My [Bircher] Gramma© likely made the Noticing come earlier than … in most (actual Observers of ..their/our!-fish-bowl?) Believe it requires many years of marinating in the stew of daily trash-talk from This specimen, inane vapors from That candidate, just plain Nastiness from THAT one
Before a One concludes (just as simply-said as your Father’s summary) … that, No I am Not just some misanthrope lookin’ fer feckless confirmation to add to other biases: I Am Amidst a largely hypocritical, oft massively Iggerant of-all-aspects of history/local or Worldwide etc. Tribe(s) of Know-nothings who Like It just that way (cf. all the bitchin SIgs to that effect.)
I also had an Aunt (on Father’s side) a Teacher of tads, who had the Common Sense to read-up on ’Socialism/Communism’ in the ’30s, and deem that ~ just maybe in that —> Direction lies a saner future than THIS {she had not the words Clusterfuck-denouement-of Vulture Capitalismo then, or even later, but..} ‘Auntie Flo always was My Fav Auntie..
Carrion..
(Sometimes it right-next-to you) in the next voting booth.. ...
|
Post #419,789
8/17/17 9:23:14 AM
8/17/17 9:23:14 AM
|
Yes, Baltimore did it the next day. I wonder why ...
|
Post #419,794
8/17/17 11:21:46 AM
8/17/17 11:21:46 AM
|
I've withdrawn from being an advocate of violent revolution.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,806
8/17/17 7:16:06 PM
8/17/17 7:16:06 PM
|
eh? yer off the flogging committee then,
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
|
Post #419,677
8/15/17 4:43:17 PM
8/15/17 4:43:17 PM
|
Really?
You (we) don't fight an evil by putting something beside it to somehow compensate. We get rid of the evil as best we can. Should Georgia have put up a statue of one of Stalin's victims beside his statue, or should they have simply removed the statue? But Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia's pro-Western president, said he wanted the statue moved into a local museum that devoted to the Soviet dictator.
He argued that the late dictator was too closely associated with what he called the "Soviet occupation of Georgia".
"A memorial to Stalin has no place in the Georgia of the 21st century," he said.
A statue commemorating the victims of Georgia's short and disastrous war with Russia in 2008 would take the Stalin statue's place, he added.
Giorgy Baramidze, Georgia's minister for European integration, explained that calls for the Stalin statue's removal had multiplied since the war against Russia.
"The presence of that monument in the centre of Gori was especially shameful after the Russian aggression... by a state that is a legal successor to the Empire once created by Stalin," he said.
"Our historical ideals should be people who tried to build a normal civilised country rather than bloodthirsty hangmen." Why isn't that reasoning good enough for the present-day USA? Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a few minutes - someone who lived under Jim Crow... Cheers, Scott.
|
Post #419,678
8/15/17 4:47:41 PM
8/15/17 4:47:41 PM
|
Sorry. Not enough words on my part.
I should have qualified that with, "If it's impossible to move the statues to a museum, then my buddy's idea is a better one."
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
|
Post #419,701
8/15/17 10:01:05 PM
8/15/17 10:01:05 PM
|
No it's not
It is simply a statue for the racists to point and laugh at while admiring their hero.
|
Post #419,668
8/15/17 4:24:24 PM
8/15/17 4:24:24 PM
|
local controls
Virginia has state laws that make it impossible for any locality to remove many of these "monuments" Yeah, these Red State fellers are all for local government, local controls, but there are circumstances under which they’re prepared to deviate from that principle. cordially,
|
Post #419,712
8/16/17 7:24:49 AM
8/16/17 7:24:49 AM
|
Impossible? Bah, nothing is impossible.
From SK's law quote: For purposes of this section, “disturb or interfere with” includes removal of, damaging or defacing monuments or memorials, or, in the case of the War Between the States, the placement of Union markings or monuments on previously designated Confederate memorials or the placement of Confederate markings or monuments on previously designated Union memorials. [my emphasis -- C.R.C.] But that doesn't mean anything, since there was no "War Between the States", just a War of Southern Slave-owning Rebellion. No protection mentioned for that one.
-- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
|
Post #419,713
8/16/17 7:27:48 AM
8/16/17 7:27:48 AM
|
Or, perhaps even better...
Same quote: For purposes of this section, “disturb or interfere with” includes removal of, damaging or defacing monuments or memorials, or, in the case of the War Between the States, the placement of Union markings or monuments on previously designated Confederate memorials or the placement of Confederate markings or monuments on previously designated Union memorials. [different emphasis -- C.R.C.] Ah, so then the bit about removal doesn't apply to Civil War monuments. Remove away, Virginians!
-- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
|
Post #419,680
8/15/17 4:52:23 PM
8/15/17 4:52:23 PM
|
Try ... the 'Korean War' for a negative conclusion..
We. Lost. This amidst the hideous weather, terrain ... the periodic massed near-suicide charges of the invasion-ees, at several places (Names of those, today? known only to the U.S.ian survivors.) My recollection is, that these young soldiers bore those events as meritoriously as did the folks on Okinawa -vs- the brilliantly "tunneled-in" Japanese forces.
I wasn't paying attention to such matters then natch, but it may be that, despite the (sometimes) chronicled truly-Heroic efforts of many of our conscripted-yout there, Americans were umm.. morphing towards becoming? the ridicule-attracting Muricans ..now sufficiently prevalent as to have elected a Dictat under the guise of '"Fixing !? 'Things'". As in, And. So. it. Goes. There may be some small monument somewhere to Korean Vets--nothing remotely so Grand (and appropriate) as the epic Art of Maya Lin--whose Monument I perused on a trip Boston --> Miami in early '90s. I saw that wall before and ~ dusk and.. (you have to Be There, Live.) But I may be misinformed re this paucity of Korean War memorials ... since last I noticed, way-back.
Carrion Murican culture should install That Honest symbol of Vulture Capitalism and ..give the poor fucking Eagle some rest, I wot.
|
Post #419,691
8/15/17 7:14:07 PM
8/15/17 7:14:07 PM
|
that was a tie and still isnt over
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
|
Post #419,686
8/15/17 6:35:40 PM
8/15/17 6:35:41 PM
|
Actually, there are some
|
Post #419,697
8/15/17 9:00:09 PM
8/15/17 9:00:09 PM
|
And for something on the wrong side of the tracks and closer to current events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yser_Tower#/media/File:IJzertorenPanorama.jpgThe Ijzertoren originated as a monument to fallen Flemish soldiers post WW I. However, it got coopted by nationalist mythology and became a rallying point for the collaboration movement in the run up to, and during, WW II. The "Stone Incivique" was dynamited in the wake of the German defeat*. The remnants are what you see in the foreground of the photo. The monument in the background came in its place a short while later. However, blowing it up only strengthened the resolve of the tribe and it became the focus of an annual nationalist ritual where they lamented every slap in the face received since 1302. Officially a commemoration of WW I, it has always had strong white supremacist overtones. e.g. until the fall of Apartheid, the Zuid Afrikaans national anthem was always on the songsheet. The movement has always had strong political connections and had several splits and mergers along "purity of essence" lines. The official WW I commemoration eventually banned the brown overtones, but shortly after an unofficial event sprung up for the true faithful. And until recently, there was also an annual gathering of the Birch Cross society, the overarching collective of East Front fighters, complete with "Meine Ehre Ist Treue" banner. * Officially, the demolition crew was never caught but a while back, a former Army sergeant claimed credit in name of his platoon.
|
Post #420,104
8/31/17 9:48:12 PM
8/31/17 9:56:46 PM
|
Passing strange, this all..
A 'monument' to No More War ..first BLOWN Up thence.. replaced with an Artwork tower of complex construction etc. etc. And a rallying-point by folks who--it may be surmised---are, many of them: just itchin to find an excuse to grab something sharp/or explosive and .. And.. Keep War Alive! ... ..you namby-pamby Sissy-peaceniks!
I so confused.. it's about the exact-opposite of, say: the just-dismembered nice-Droid's quip, near end of Aliens, after Ripley had Kicked--[wtf Was the Ass of that Thing?]--and saved the most precious/gutsy child ever seen on screen!
Not bad for a.. Hu.. man!
{{sigh}} Humans!!!
Edited by Ashton
Aug. 31, 2017, 09:56:46 PM EDT
|
Post #420,109
9/2/17 10:58:05 AM
9/2/17 10:58:05 AM
|
The monument was "dual use" from the get go
"No more war" was one, the other was, very clearly, "no more dead Flemish soldiers due to Walloon officers". The latter was a myth but as time went on, "no more war" faded in the background and the myth was used to whip up an ever uglier nationalist fervor at the annual commemoration pilgrimage.
By the time it was becoming clear that "no more war" was a utopia, the movement had become one of collaboration with the Germans as they saw them as the best ever opportunity to finally break free of the "French speaking oppressor". From 1942 on, the monument and the meeting became recruiting tools to get volunteers to join the Waffen SS on the eastern front.
The resistance movement attempted to demolish the tower just before the end of hostilities in Europe but did not succeed. The army had more "go boom" left and finished the job in 1946.
Charlottesville did trigger some soul searching, however. There is now a movement afoot to find and rename the streets still named after some of the collaborators.
|
Post #420,391
9/17/17 8:08:51 PM
9/17/17 8:08:51 PM
|
Belatedly.. this manifestly-schizoid chain of events may illuminate just why
Agatha Christie made Hercule Poirot ... a Belgian! (how better to assure him inscrutable re any personal ruminations ?)
No? ;^>
Not that Everything to-do with the bloody Rebel-Monuments locally-and-Endlessly ... isn't equally!
Schizoid ... (when it ain't merely hypocritical or blatant-B.S. that is.)
|
Post #419,690
8/15/17 7:11:40 PM
8/15/17 7:11:40 PM
|
yes in every town square altho to be fair it also includes all lives lost in all wars
One thing you might want to remember that most of those things were put up with private money. I have no objection the removing Robert E Lee from new orleans as I doubt he ever set foot in the place. Tearing down a statue of Sam Houston in Houston? I dont think so
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
|
Post #419,708
8/16/17 3:00:21 AM
8/16/17 3:00:21 AM
|
Every town and village in the UK has a war memorial
Even tiny little hamlets: https://goo.gl/maps/3DZmroikJn82There are some 68,000 war memorials in the UK, ranging from simple plaques to grandiose monuments. They are not about celebrating victory; they are about remembering the fallen. I don't know if Armistice Day (November 11th) is a thing in the US, but here it's a sombre, reflective day, with a widely-observed minute's silence at 11AM. We don't celebrate VE Day.
|
Post #419,710
8/16/17 6:30:10 AM
8/16/17 6:30:10 AM
|
Aussie ones are about remembering the fallen, too.
|
Post #419,716
8/16/17 8:11:33 AM
8/16/17 8:11:33 AM
|
We've got those, too
Typically they list all those who died in all conflicts. It's the monuments to specific generals or one particular war that I'm thinking about.
|
Post #419,718
8/16/17 8:36:00 AM
8/16/17 8:36:01 AM
|
The clear intent of the things here can be inferred from the timing.
Yes, 11/11 is an important thing here, too. These things are different. These Confederate statues are all about imposing and reinforcing white supremacy. D.W. Griffith's "Birth of a Nation" (which Woodrow Wilson screened at the White House and (IIRC) thought was a documentary) came out in 1915. (via Kevin Drum) Cheers, Scott.
|
Post #419,719
8/16/17 8:51:03 AM
8/16/17 8:51:03 AM
|
That Drum link: yes, that
|
Post #419,753
8/16/17 6:24:21 PM
8/16/17 6:24:21 PM
|
Indeed, graph needs words; Drum has them.
|
Post #419,756
8/16/17 6:59:17 PM
8/16/17 6:59:17 PM
|
curious, have you actually seen "birth of a nation"?
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
|
Post #419,765
8/16/17 8:48:04 PM
8/16/17 8:48:04 PM
|
Yup. Saw it in class in HS.
|