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New Car (apparently) deliberately plows into anti-fascist rally at Charlottesville.
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/watch-car-plows-through-crowd-at-charlottesville-protest-leaving-bloodied-protesters-in-its-wake/

Horrible.

Trump supposedly is speaking after he completes his round of golf today at 3 PM. No doubt he'll say something like "this is what happens when people vote for Hillary"...

:-/

Fingers crossed for the injured.

:-(

Cheers,
Scott.
New The driver is in custody.
It's a terrible thing that he did.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New yeah, bet he is crying for his rights about now
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
New Nah, what he did was to blame the victims just as much as the Nazi terrorists.
Not that he called the Nazi terrorists by that correct name. Why start now, when their support is what he relies on? Naah, bring on the "Rootless Cosmopolitan" dogwhistles in stead.
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New It's looking as if his (twice-repeated "from all sources") Weasel-phrase has galvanized ..lots.
A couple more CEOs on his 'advisory committee' have resigned (him Hates anything resembling a rebuff..)
Many non-trivial folks--too numerous to create a bio for each--have focussed on his utter failure even to respond to the death of the woman (Etc.) until, apparently hugely prodded ... for (both) way-too-late comments.
Each commentator gave own essay on the Presidential expectation of stepping-up to Moral (suasion) precisely in such hideous circumstances; tl;dr: this was a palpable FAIL.

While the parallels with Brown Shirts run-amok are inescapable, thus far I haven't seen that (obvious) comparo uttered. Yet.
Still, each one addressed: ~~ just How revelatory of Drumpf's utter Incapability of doing the Prez-gig at all ..has been this shitty performance.
(None of these gave any credence to his later 'corrective' rhetoric either, so obviously someone-Else's words-via-prompter.)

IMO the near-identical focus of so many: offers rational hope that: The Orange-utan just may have revealed finally enough of the emptiness of his psyche and absence of any sign of "integrity".

Have these awakened a passel of (cowardly? or just catatonic) fence-sitters? Damned if I know W.T.F. it TAKES to nail this mo-fo (YeahIKnow: CATASTROPHE-first, then: Duh.) Then ...
New And with his and his family's history, this surprises whom?
Drumpf's daddy was a Klansman, I thought everyone knew that. I know the consensus is, "Well, it's not absolute proof" but GMAFB. Couple that with the violation of the Fair Housing Act by Trump Management in the 1970's just as Donnie was taking over and someone's surprised he didn't condemn the Klan? I mean for shit's sake, I know there was a settlement in the 1970s and all that (typical of the monied class in our cough, cough, gag, wheez, judicial system), but how much more blatant can you be than the below?
NEW YORK — When a black woman asked to rent an apartment in a Brooklyn complex managed by Donald Trump’s real estate company, she said she was told that nothing was available. A short time later, a white woman who made the same request was invited to choose between two available apartments.

The two would-be renters on that July 1972 day were actually undercover “testers” for a ­government-sanctioned investigation to determine whether Trump Management Inc. discriminated against minorities seeking housing at properties across Brooklyn and Queens.

Federal investigators also gathered evidence. Trump employees had secretly marked the applications of minorities with codes, such as “No. 9” and “C” for “colored,” according to government interview accounts filed in federal court. The employees allegedly directed blacks and Puerto Ricans away from buildings with mostly white tenants, and steered them toward properties that had many minorities, the government filings alleged.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-the-governments-racial-bias-case-against-donald-trumps-company-and-how-he-fought-it/2016/01/23/fb90163e-bfbe-11e5-bcda-62a36b394160_story.html

I wouldn't be surprised at all if there isn't some old photograph of little Donnie in a cape and a hood hidden somewhere.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New And you didn't even mention the full page ad in 4 newpapers he paid for.
In 1989 Donald Trump took out a full page ad in four New York City newspapers calling for the execution of the alleged rapists in the infamous Central Park Jogger case. Never mind that the five alleged assailants were all minors, or that rape wasn't a capital crime. There was a moral panic to be stoked.
o o o
If Trump had his way, all of the Central Park Five would have been dead by 2002. That's the year Matias Reyes, already in prison for rape and murder, confessed to the crime, and insisted he acted alone. DNA tests had already confirmed that only one person raped victim Trisha Meili. Further testing showed Reyes was that person. Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morganthou later vacated the convictions of the other five suspects, all of whom had already served their sentences for the attack.
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New And, Drumpf doubles-down.
(CNN)In a remarkable news conference in the lobby of Trump Tower, President Donald Trump blamed the violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, Saturday on both sides of the conflict, equating the white supremacists on one side with the "alt-left" on the other side.

"I think there is blame on both sides," he said.

"What about the alt-left that came charging at, as you say, the alt-right, do they have any semblance of guilt?" Trump said. "What about the fact they came charging with clubs in hands, swinging clubs, do they have any problem, I think they do."

He added: "You had a group on one side that was bad and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent. nobody wants to say it, but I will say it right now."


http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/trump-charlottesville-delay/index.html
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
Expand Edited by mmoffitt Aug. 15, 2017, 04:51:14 PM EDT
New "And Lee is just like Washington and Jefferson."
He's insane.

He's a racist.

He needs to go.

Quickly.

Before he blows up the world.

:-(

Cheers,
Scott.
New WRT White Supremacy, he almost has a point.
They were *all* White Supremacists (as was Lincoln). Every one of them. Lee's slaves were technically owned by his wife, who inherited them from Washington. So, there's that.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New He wasn't talking about historical figures
--

Drew
New For me, it's not whether the US was founded on slavery.
Of course it was. And it was horrible.

For me, the reasons to oppose these monuments to the Confederacy have to consider the context.

1) Yes, many presidents were slave-owners (or at least the family did) - including U.S. Grant. The issue isn't whether US presidents were slave-holders.

2) Yes, even some/many in the North were slave owners (or traced their fortunes to slavery) and Confederate sympathizers - including important people in the Union Army (McClellan). Sympathy isn't the issue.

3) Lee and the rest of the Confederacy took up arms against the United States. They were traitors. They - explicitly (look at the articles of secession) - fought to preserve slavery and white supremacy. Lincoln, Grant, and even McClellan and others fought to preserve the Union.

4) The monuments were put in place to terrorize anyone who didn't support white supremacy years after the end of the war. It wasn't to memorialize the dead, it was to try to preserve white supremacy.

It's long past time that these monuments to white supremacy and traitors were removed.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I understand your POV and do not object to it.
What I object to is the misguided notion that "Northern Men were moral men who believed in Equality for All. Southern Men believed in White Supremacy." That is demonstrably false. Even the vaunted Abraham Lincoln was a White Supremacist.

Can we please not lie about this? Can we not pretend that there are no racists north of the Mason-Dixon? They are legion. Based upon my own experience, I'd say particularly in the Mid-West.

The statues should be gone from all public spaces and, only perhaps, relocated to museums. I don't think angry mobs should tear them down. I think the States who erected them should have to pay to remove them. But simply removing them is not a panacea. Not with the monsters we have in the White House and DOJ. I heard Michael Moore say that he thought, "The overwhelming majority of Trump's supporters liked what he said [yesterday]." And he's right. I know. I live among them and I am no longer in the South.

Some here need to be told to get off their Northern Superiority kick and remember that Donald J. Trump is a Northerner, too.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Who (other than you) is saying it's a Northerners/Southerners thing?
--

Drew
New I'm sorry. That statues aren't of Southern Generals?
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Find me a statue of a northern general who fought to defend slavery
I'll support taking that one down, too.

See? It's not about where they're from. It's about what they did.
--

Drew
New I know it's not what we like to say in polite company, but, ...
the Civil War was fought for the same reason every war is fought: acquisition of wealth, land and power.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New No
Short excerpt from the long answer:
The Civil War was not fundamentally about "states rights". Asserting a state's right to secede doesn't speak to why the state wants to secede. Steven's citation of reasons in his answer only serve to underline this. When the northern states were threatened by the War of 1812, they considered secession. When South Carolina was threatened by a tariff, they attempted to nullify the law. When a state's self interests come into play, they'll take advantage of whatever political mechanism they can imagine to assert that self interest, up to and including nullification, secession, and war.

The real story is not in the political mechanics but the underlying interest in preserving slavery that forced the South to become so hell bent on their "states rights". If Northern states had seceded over the War of 1812, we wouldn't assert the fundamental cause was a debate over state's rights. Rather we'd say it was their opposition to the War of 1812. The same applies for the South's secession as well. Their interest in preserving slavery drove them to use untested constitutional mechanism and eventually go to war.


Short answer:
--

Drew
Expand Edited by drook Aug. 16, 2017, 12:44:09 PM EDT
New Read Foote's volumes and get back with me.
He knew a bit more about it than some pasty skinned IT worker.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New (sigh)
T.N. Coates:

[...]

Thus in 1861, when the Civil War began, the Union did not face a peaceful Southern society wanting to be left alone. It faced an an aggressive power, a Genosha, an entire society based on the bondage of a third of its residents, with dreams of expanding its fields of the bondage further South. It faced the dream of a vast American empire of slavery. In January of 1861, three months before the Civil War commenced, Florida secessionists articulated the position directly:

At the South, and with our People of course, slavery is the element of all value, and a destruction of that destroys all that is property. This party, now soon to take possession of the powers of the Government, is sectional, irresponsible to us, and driven on by an infuriated fanatical madness that defies all opposition, must inevitably destroy every vestige or right growing out of property in slaves.

Gentlemen, the State of Florida is now a member of the Union under the power of the Government, so to go into the hands of this party.

As we stand our doom is decreed.


Not yet. As the Late Unpleasantness stretched from the predicted months into years, the very reason for the Confederacy’s existence came to threaten its diplomatic efforts. Fighting for slavery presented problems abroad, and so Confederate diplomats came up with the notion of emphasizing “states rights” over “slavery” — the first manifestation of what would later become a plank in the foundation of Lost Cause mythology.


Read the whole thing.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Slaves were the key to the wealth of the South. HTH.
If you think that the North was opposed to slavery on moral grounds, you're deluding yourself. Had it not been for the disproportionate amount of wealth funneling to the South due to slave labor the North (comprised mainly of White Supremacists itself) wouldn't have given a tinker's damn about slavery.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Whatever the reason...
The North opposed expanding slavery, while the South went to war to do so.

That's the bottom line, for me anyway.

YMMV.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I don't really disagree with that.
The North opposed expanding slavery, while the South went to war to do so.

Yes, the North objected to slavery and the South wanted it continued. But both held their respective positions exclusively out of a concern for wealth; who got it and where. Just like all other wars, that war was about wealth, power and territory. This is not to be misread as some sort of white-washing of slavery. I'm merely pointing out the true motivation for the war.

And even this is overly simplistic. For instance, in writing about a book he recommends, "Slaves Without Masters: The Free Negro in the Antebellum South" by Ira Berlin, Henry Louis Gates, Jr. writes:
Here’s where the monolith falls apart, however. As critical as Berlin’s findings about the North and South was his revelation that the South really consisted of “two Souths”: an Upper and a Lower, distinguished, among other things, by their histories, geographies and outlooks.

The Upper South (think Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina and later Kentucky, Missouri, Tennessee and D.C.) had been marked by its earlier history of manumission following the Revolution; it also had a more negative outlook about slavery’s future as a result of its increasingly inhospitable soil (for more on this, see Amazing Fact, “What Was the Second Middle Passage?”).

The Lower South (think Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, South, Carolina and Texas), by contrast, had never embraced manumission fever, and because there was still so much money to be made off the cotton trade (see Amazing Fact, “Why Was Cotton King?”), it never wavered in its commitment to the slave economy.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-americans-many-rivers-to-cross/history/free-blacks-lived-in-the-north-right/

I've never read Berlin's book, but upon reading Gates, I'm inclined to pick it up.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Ah. Not a White Supremacist then, only a Confederate Apologist. (Hyuuuuge difference.)
New Yet another miss.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New So it's just coincidence that you're pushing their arguments, word-for-word exactly? Yeah, riight...
New Reference? Links? Never mind. Check the other forum for reply.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Now THAT conflation smacks mightily of
..that which you Despise in the BOx's oft-meandering fulminations. I deem ^this^ smack-dab amidst that level of (misplaced) puffery.

It's just simple-defamation. Pity.
Do better or ... turn in your epaulets.
New he can, but if you look at the time stamp he hadnt had his bran muffin yet
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
     Car (apparently) deliberately plows into anti-fascist rally at Charlottesville. - (Another Scott) - (28)
         The driver is in custody. - (malraux) - (1)
             yeah, bet he is crying for his rights about now -NT - (boxley)
         Nah, what he did was to blame the victims just as much as the Nazi terrorists. - (CRConrad) - (3)
             It's looking as if his (twice-repeated "from all sources") Weasel-phrase has galvanized ..lots. - (Ashton)
             And with his and his family's history, this surprises whom? - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                 And you didn't even mention the full page ad in 4 newpapers he paid for. - (a6l6e6x)
         And, Drumpf doubles-down. - (mmoffitt) - (21)
             "And Lee is just like Washington and Jefferson." - (Another Scott) - (20)
                 WRT White Supremacy, he almost has a point. - (mmoffitt) - (19)
                     He wasn't talking about historical figures -NT - (drook)
                     For me, it's not whether the US was founded on slavery. - (Another Scott) - (17)
                         I understand your POV and do not object to it. - (mmoffitt) - (16)
                             Who (other than you) is saying it's a Northerners/Southerners thing? -NT - (drook) - (15)
                                 I'm sorry. That statues aren't of Southern Generals? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (14)
                                     Find me a statue of a northern general who fought to defend slavery - (drook) - (13)
                                         I know it's not what we like to say in polite company, but, ... - (mmoffitt) - (12)
                                             No - (drook) - (11)
                                                 Read Foote's volumes and get back with me. - (mmoffitt) - (10)
                                                     (sigh) - (Another Scott) - (9)
                                                         Slaves were the key to the wealth of the South. HTH. - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                                                             Whatever the reason... - (Another Scott) - (7)
                                                                 I don't really disagree with that. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                                                     Ah. Not a White Supremacist then, only a Confederate Apologist. (Hyuuuuge difference.) -NT - (CRConrad) - (5)
                                                                         Yet another miss. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                             So it's just coincidence that you're pushing their arguments, word-for-word exactly? Yeah, riight... -NT - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                                 Reference? Links? Never mind. Check the other forum for reply. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                         Now THAT conflation smacks mightily of - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                             he can, but if you look at the time stamp he hadnt had his bran muffin yet -NT - (boxley)

Nelson is one of those insulting, conceited, impatient, coffee-drinking, cell-phone-using, Jaguar-driving advertising executives that you find in only two places: the movies and real life. His motto is: Speed up and smell the coffee.
339 ms