Here's hoping the Democrats start listening to their elder statesmen.

Post #419,039 by mmoffitt 7/20/17 2:17:34 PM 7/20/17 2:18:50 PM Reply	Here's hoping the Democrats start listening to their elder statesmen. Many health care activists are now pushing to adopt what is called a “single payer” health care system, where one public health insurance program would cover everyone. The U.S. currently has one federal program like that: Medicare. Expanding it polls very well. One of the activists pushing for such an expansion is Max Fine, someone who is intimately familiar with the program — because he helped create it. Fine is the last surviving member of President Kennedy’s Medicare Task Force, and he was also President Johnson’s designated debunker against the health insurance industry. Fine, now 91, wrote to The Intercept recently to explain that Medicare was never intended to cover only the elderly population, and that expanding it to everyone was a goal that its architects long campaigned for. “Three years after the enactment of Medicare, in Dec. 1968, a Committee of 100 leading Americans was formed to campaign for single payer National Heath Insurance. The campaign leaders were UAW pres. Walter Reuther, Dr. Michael DeBakey, Nat. Urban League Pres Whitney Young and Mary Lasker, a leader in the formation and funding of NIH,” he wrote.”The NY Times and other newspapers gave front page play to the announcement of the campaign for ‘Medicare for All’ but the Committee gained even more attention when, shortly before xmas, pres-elect Nixon, emerging from his doctor’s office in San Diego, denounced us as socialists who were trying to create a problem when none existed.” Fine noted that this movement towards single payer has “risen and fallen over the years,” reaching a high point in the early 70s when former Democratic Massachusetts Sen. Ted Kennedy’s bill covering all Americans with government health insurance had 36 co-sponsors. But the Democratic Party decided to go a different direction, turning instead to private insurance to cover Americans. Fine said he met with former First Lady Hillary Clinton’s health care task force in the early 1990’s, and advised them to incrementally expand Medicare, starting first with children and then lowering the age for the elderly. “They had the money but not the interest in the idea,” he lamented, “instead spending a year developing a complex bill that was DOA on [Capitol] Hill.” ... After the death of the Senate healthcare bill yesterday, The Intercept reached out to Fine for comment about where Congress should go next. “Single payer is the only real answer and some day I believe the Republicans will leap ahead of the Democrats and lead in its enactment,” he speculated, “just as did Bismarck in Germany and David Lloyd George and Churchill in the UK.” https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19/trumpcare-is-dead-single-payer-is-the-only-real-answer-says-medicare-architect/ bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again. Edited by mmoffitt July 20, 2017, 02:18:50 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #419,043 by a6l6e6x 7/20/17 4:44:10 PM 7/21/17 4:14:07 PM Reply	It's not just the lack of ideas for the Dems. It is also campaign execution. There is an interesting opinion piece in the NY Times: The Democratic Party’s Billion-Dollar Mistake In brief, too much effort on the white Trump supporter and totally insufficient effort to turn out the black vote. [edit: fix link] Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov Edited by a6l6e6x July 21, 2017, 04:14:07 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #419,047 by Andrew Grygus 7/20/17 7:26:09 PM 7/20/17 7:26:09 PM Reply	And around here, that's not all. The Hispanic and Asian blocks together probably outnumber the whites by a good margin. Orange County is now ripe for the picking. The Hispanic population there is now quite large, and the vast Vietnamese population is changing complexion. The older hard core anti-Communists are dying off (along with the right wing whites). The younger generation doesn't give a shit about Commies, there's money to be made in import-export as Vietnam increasingly becomes one of California's major trading partners. And things have changed in Vietnam too. After years of famine and other severe problems caused by central planning, the Communist government wondered, "What if we installed Capitalism and just continued to call ourselves Communist?" - and very good capitalists they have become. But- there's another MAJOR, MAJOR problem - and that's the wimpiness of Democrat candidates. While viciously attacked by Republican troglodytes, they won't attack back, despite the rich field of material. The excuse is always, "Well, we'll have to work with the Republicans in Congress". No you won't, idiots, because you aren't going to BE in Congress. Even in your wet dreams of actually being elected, they still won't work with you.
Post #419,061 by mmoffitt 7/21/17 8:33:55 AM 7/21/17 8:33:55 AM Reply	Linky broke. :0( bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,062 by Another Scott 7/21/17 10:12:43 AM 7/21/17 10:12:43 AM Reply	Change ".htm" to ".html" HTH.
Post #419,063 by mmoffitt 7/21/17 11:31:09 AM 7/21/17 11:31:09 AM Reply	спасибо. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,064 by mmoffitt 7/21/17 11:40:53 AM 7/21/17 11:40:53 AM Reply	Thanks, Alex. I couldn't agree more with this sentiment. The Democratic Party’s fixation on pursuing those who voted for Mr. Trump is a fool’s errand because it’s trying to fix the wrong problem. Although some Democratic voters (in particular, white working-class voters in Rust Belt states) probably did swing to the Republicans, the bigger problem was the large number of what I call “Obama-Johnstein” voters — people who supported Mr. Obama in 2012 but then voted for Gary Johnson, the Libertarian candidate, or Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, last year (according to the exit polls, 43 percent of them were nonwhite). Yep. Democrats need to start paying attention to their base instead of continuing the Clinton/Obama strategy of turning the party into nothing more than a little less repulsive Republican Party. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,065 by Another Scott 7/21/17 12:12:41 PM 7/21/17 12:12:41 PM Reply	There you go again. Berniebros aren't "the base". (sigh)
Post #419,067 by mmoffitt 7/21/17 1:48:22 PM 7/21/17 1:48:22 PM Reply	Berniebros are a myth constructed by the Clinton campaign. You know this. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,081 by rcareaga 7/21/17 9:22:12 PM 7/21/17 9:22:12 PM Reply	You will recall that de black fohk… withheld their votes in droves from the Sage of Burlington. Difficult to imagine why they would not have instantly recognized him as the champion of working people everywhere. I believe that a year ago you were saying here that they had been deluded or hypnotized by the Clintonistas, apparently lacking (being mere negroes and all) your own keen understanding of the class struggle. cordially,
Post #419,086 by Ashton 7/21/17 10:06:51 PM 7/21/17 10:06:51 PM Reply	{chortle} ..well shut ma mouf I plumb forgot that.. makin bushels of Good Sense ... gots Zippo to do with 'electability', that fine illustration of all which happens just as all the inner-demons race out-->together.. as you pull that lever/eyes closed (and nothin but turmoil in the decision-tree.) Izzat it? Academic now, natch: I mean, what can an old guy >70 do, [an atheist too, even!] next? (hope I never get Really-old :-) Pulled that lever for Hillary (though in CA I could.. have indulged with relative satisfiction.) I fully expect that the Next focal-point for this jelloware is ~~ as apt to be unElectable as was B.S. (quelle unfortunate initials, those!} Carrion ..may be all you Can 'elect'--even Next--within this shambles of those daily additions to the massive Dismantling-list.
Post #419,106 by mmoffitt 7/22/17 4:52:37 PM 7/22/17 4:52:37 PM Reply	You Clinton apologists have that Big Lie thing down. I'm impressed. Although I'll concede your propaganda that "Bernie only has support among Whites" may have cost him some support among POC. On Sunday, after Bernie Sanders' commanding wins in the Alaska, Hawaii and Washington state Democratic presidential caucuses, Leslie Lee III, an American freelance writer living in Japan, tweeted, "I knew it. I knew if Bernie won Hawaii it would magically become a white state." And then he tweeted again: "Ever since I voted for Bernie, I've been bingewatching Friends. #BernieMadeMeWhite." .@HillyesRose @MisaelFrancoO @TheBpDShow @cenkuygur Ever since I voted for Bernie, I've been bingewatching Friends. #BernieMadeMeWhite — L. (@tokyovampires) March 27, 2016 Lee said he wrote that to contradict a narrative he sees playing out in the race for the Democratic nomination. "There's always been these articles about how Bernie supporters are basically only white people," Lee told NPR. He continued, "Me, myself, and many other POC, people of color, who support Bernie Sanders, feel like we don't get to be a part of the conversation. We get ignored. We get erased. It's assumed that the black vote, the Hispanic vote, and everyone is all behind Hillary Clinton and none of us really get Bernie Sanders or like Bernie Sanders." So he decided to have fun with it. "Hey, if you're gonna ignore me as a black person, I might as well embrace my whiteness," Lee said. "I might as well start watching Friends, or enjoying pumpkin spice latte, or whatever. I just wanted to have a bit of fun with it while highlighting the serious issue." ... "Among African-Americans, who are 17 through 29, Bernie Sanders is actually leading that group, 51 to 48 [percent]," he said. "Among 17- to 29-year-old Hispanics, Bernie Sanders leads Hillary Clinton 66-34." http://www.npr.org/2016/03/28/472160616/-berniemademewhite-no-bernie-sanders-isnt-just-winning-with-white-people What was Bernie doing in the sixties again? What was Hillary doing then? Oh, yeah, ... But Goldwater did have the support of one notable American: Hillary Clinton. "I was ... an active Young Republican and, later, a Goldwater Girl, right down to my cowgirl outfit and straw cowboy hat emblazoned with the slogan 'AuH20,'" Clinton wrote in her memoir "Living History." "I liked Senator Goldwater because he was a rugged individualist who swam against the political tide." https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-07-18/hillary-clinton-campaign-remakes-1964-confessions-of-a-republican-ad-with-same-actor bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,109 by Another Scott 7/22/17 5:16:40 PM 7/22/17 5:16:40 PM Reply	Hawaii was a caucus. Bernie did well in caucuses. Film at 11.
Post #419,114 by rcareaga 7/22/17 7:03:01 PM 7/22/17 7:03:01 PM Reply	Very big of you, I’m sure I'll concede your propaganda that "Bernie only has support among Whites" may have cost him some support among POC. Gee, that is too bad, considering that he didn’t have much support among those who actually voted in the primaries. “Cuz we’uns is jes’ simple cuhluh’d fohk, Marse Moffitt, n’ yew wasn’t heah to ’splain how dat debbil Miz Clinton wuz de secon’ comin’ o’ dat bad ol’ Sen’ Golhlwattah. Lawdie, all dat DNC prop’ganduh done skeer de lahf out o’ me, ’deed it done! Ah vote fo’ de lady ’cawse Ah dint know no bettah! Please, Marse Moffitt, not de whip!” curdially,
Post #419,117 by a6l6e6x 7/22/17 8:33:43 PM 7/22/17 8:33:43 PM Reply	That should be "mighty white of you!" :) Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #419,148 by mmoffitt 7/24/17 8:36:42 AM 7/24/17 8:36:42 AM Reply	You call Cornel West an Uncle Tom, I take it. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,149 by Another Scott 7/24/17 8:41:58 AM 7/24/17 8:41:58 AM Reply	You're better than that...
Post #419,151 by mmoffitt 7/24/17 8:45:22 AM 7/24/17 8:50:09 AM Reply	And yet, you didn't scold Rand. I was just asking for him to be consistent. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again. Edited by mmoffitt July 24, 2017, 08:50:09 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #419,152 by mmoffitt 7/24/17 8:52:33 AM 7/24/17 8:52:33 AM Reply	And another thing. That's RICH coming from you. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,135 by rcareaga 7/23/17 4:13:28 PM 7/23/17 4:16:47 PM Reply	Ignore; dup (Somewhere there must be a way to cause this browser not to revive all the formerly open windows after it is re-opened following a force-quit. Edited by rcareaga July 23, 2017, 04:16:47 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #419,080 by Ashton 7/21/17 7:43:11 PM 7/21/17 7:43:11 PM Reply	It is in the nature of 'Democrat-ism' for constituents to be VARIED in their views ..as opposed to the One-Repo-Size SHALL Fit All becausethat'show we bulldoze theselibrul-scum into SUBMISSION. aka A million marching-Nazis sure showed them (earlier) ~~Murican~~ Weimar wanna-be-Self-governed "republic-ans" ... what sort of CAMP would be prepared for THEM. Employing such L-murther as, Berniebros IS Soo lock-step-mind targeted, and ... you are Smarter than that. Aintcha? (aka IF.. it takes re-MOLDING 'Democrat Valuez' into {{ugh}} equal/opposite mind-fucking Repo-light* is someone's.. Anyone's.. idea of a Winning Strategy:? Then Fuck. It. we ARE Toast-for the-duration. And to that Murica, I always Do say: DIE then! er, Country-of: dullard incestuous-mind-fucks (if the slogan permits any prurient adjectives at all.) * "Bernie" presented cohesive, consistent, sometimes-original! Ideas around which to begin forming next: a RELEVANT, authentic? Democrat-party raison d'etre in 2016 Onward --> Hillary OTOH mouthed the repo-light platitudes du THAT jour ... and all amidst really transparently lame "strategies" (and-she-didn't even go to Wisconsi, Minnesota etc. etc. in the crucial closing-daze, etc. ad naus Lastly; B. WASN'T a scripted-'Democrat'-party-member ... but that is a mere semantic barrier: IF people really wanted to implement the beginnings of some authentic Democracy next. Carrion ..beats Chicken (-shit) Mind-Mc-Nuggets ..for nutrition ;^>
Post #419,101 by Another Scott 7/22/17 1:55:55 PM 7/22/17 1:58:00 PM Reply	Bernie had a good speech. That is all. He had no understanding of how to get his legislation through the Senate. (His signature Senate legislation rarely had co-sponsors.) He had no understanding of how to explain his signature proposal to break up the banks. He has the same kind of "maverick" disease that McCain had, but it's much worse. Bernie advocated primarying Obama in 2012. Why didn't Bernie release his income taxes? Why did he file his Senate financial disclosure form months late? Is he hiding something, or just incompetent at doing the simplest forms of disclosure? (The Clintons have been disclosing this stuff for decades, but somehow they're Corrupt™.) Too many people took to heart his perpetual insinuations about the Corrupt™ Hillary and Democratic party. He did almost nothing to help the rest of the down-ballot ticket, and that handful that he did help he apparently only did so to boost his own brand. He's a flawed messenger and he did a lot of damage. Too many of Bernie's supporters took his speeches as gospel (I still hear from J about the Corrupt Democratic Party and evil Clintons, while Trump and his minions try to wreck everything...). Yes, there are Berniebros out there and they're still doing damage. That was part of Bernie's appeal to many of them - wrecking the Democratic Party so that they could build their white-guy Socialist Utopia on its ashes, or something. It's no accident that Bernie was the GOP favorite in 2016... Hillary won the popular vote by a large margin. She beat Bernie by a large margin. We have the evidence in actual votes that Bernie didn't have enough support to be dictating (especially when he's not a Democrat) the future policy positions of the Democratic Party. FWIW. Cheers, Scott. (Who will try not to harp on this stuff at every opportunity, but it's hard...) Edited by Another Scott July 22, 2017, 01:58:00 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #419,102 by boxley 7/22/17 2:15:43 PM 7/22/17 2:15:43 PM Reply	the folks that ran the whitehouse as an airbnb destination corrupt? really? :-) "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #419,107 by mmoffitt 7/22/17 5:02:54 PM 7/22/17 5:02:54 PM Reply	"Bernie had a good speech. That is all." Heh. You mean like Obama? I'll try not to keep harping on this, but its hard for me. If you keep attacking the 1/2 of the Democratic Party that voted for him, we're going to lose again. Bernie is not the enemy. Wall Street, Big Pharma, Big Insurance and their handmaidens in the Democratic Party are the enemy. Keep it up and we'll have four more years of Trump - or worse, Pence. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,108 by Another Scott 7/22/17 5:14:49 PM 7/22/17 5:14:49 PM Reply	(shakes head slowly). TRUMP is the enemy. It's the Berniebros that won't let it go...
Post #419,111 by Ashton 7/22/17 5:40:34 PM 7/22/17 5:40:34 PM Reply	Myopia is a terrible thing not-to-lose.
Post #419,150 by mmoffitt 7/24/17 8:44:59 AM 7/24/17 8:44:59 AM Reply	You're heading down the very same road to defeat again. Can't you see that? 2. A majority thinks Democrats don't stand for anything other than being against Trump. Only 37% of Americans say the Democratic Party "stands for something," while 52% say it just stands against Trump, according to the same ABC News/Washington Post poll. It comes at a time when Democrats are left without a clear figurehead and many, both inside and outside of the party, have criticized its leaders for lack of a clear message. http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/22/politics/five-poll-numbers-democrats-uneasy/index.html No message, no votes. People don't vote against anything. They vote for something. Okay, maybe not you and Rand, but do you really want future elections to turn out like 2016's? If you do, then by all means, ignore me again. If not, you should consider changing tactics. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,153 by Another Scott 7/24/17 11:12:42 AM 7/24/17 11:12:42 AM Reply	TRUMP is the enemy...
Post #419,154 by mmoffitt 7/24/17 11:46:51 AM 7/24/17 11:46:51 AM Reply	And we can't beat him by simply "not being him." bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,155 by Another Scott 7/24/17 12:58:35 PM 7/24/17 12:58:35 PM Reply	You continue to beat up on people who aren't in office and aren't running for office...
Post #419,160 by Ashton 7/24/17 6:43:34 PM 7/24/17 6:43:34 PM Reply	Cannot parse this, nor comprehend the allusions/metaphors which supply no clarity. (often, of late.) Seems we’re at … [Perceived-by each!] “Basic” loggerheads where: {Spy -vs- Spy? cf. MAD mag/many issues} “Posited Aims to Cure Murica” (say,) diverge ^{^}_v amongst the Lot-of-Us. [Let us Not-recreate the massive-exchanges re “Snowden”] and our quite varied attitudes re. each’s-In-duh-vid-ual attitude towards (say?) any Idea of worshipping! some dreamlike version of The dis-U.S.Constitution … ‘K? [cf. the lengthy Snowden thread here, in June ’16 + CRC’s re-Visitation in 6/’17. If needed.] Because: those exchanges indicate what various here Really Think about living in the dis-US AS IT IS NOW. In the algebra of “making any plan”, there seems an unarguable progression: [PLAN] … refer-to-one; Make one; OK: set out minimal ingredients for creating same [STRATEGY] How (best) implement PLAN? (in present ZEITGEIST == implicit.) [TACTICS] Nuts & bolts of strategy: from Obvious -to- Arcane.. etc. Anybody gots an actual PLAN? for A) Speediest retirement of the entire Drumpf + Billionaire Boys’ Club perps S.A.P. B) Restoring some gumption to the Controlling-$rich-D.N.C. so as to create an environment for: The Next Demo candidate(s) having learned the Lessons of the Hillary-clusterfuck, now solidly-in Everyone’s hippocampus, for Good (or Evul?) That’s all I want; easy-peasy, huh? ;^>
Post #419,161 by boxley 7/24/17 7:00:03 PM 7/24/17 7:00:03 PM Reply	short and to the point "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #419,164 by Another Scott 7/24/17 10:20:09 PM 7/24/17 10:20:09 PM Reply	Ok, I admit that many of my comments in this thread might seem to be non-sequiturs. I didn't read The Intercept piece. Or the Times piece that Alex pointed us to. There are too few hours in the day for me to do more than skim much of the news. And I don't regard The Intercept as an honest broker, myself. But the whole thought process behind the articles, as present here, doesn't make much sense to me. And I jumped in the middle to make that opinion known. People don't vote for ideas. They vote for candidates. All the "Democrats don't stand for anything" polling and so forth doesn't mean anything. It's lazy reporting. Hillary stood for all kinds of things, and lots of very good things. The press didn't report those things, and too many voters couldn't be bothered to read her positions for themselves. Yes, Atrios is right that it's never a winning strategy to blame the voters. But counter-factuals aren't reality either. Sure, Hillary should have done some things differently, but the idea that she and the Democratic Party don't stand for anything is nonsense. In the meantime, while non-Democrats go on and on about how Democrats need to change, Trump and his minions continue to try to destroy everything. Sorry if I seem a little testy about this stuff, but I am. There's still too much talk about how horrible Hillary and the DNC are. Yet those critics seem to have little or nothing to say about things like the Senate vote tomorrow that will (if the Trumpers and Teabaggers succeed) directly make the lives of tens of millions of people much worse, and kill tens of thousands. I'm doing my part to keep that from happening. I'm writing letters, I'm donating to people and organizations that are fighting in the trenches, I'm marching in the streets. And I'm trying to wake certain civil aviation people up to the dangers. ;-) If you (generic you) want to get my attention, tell me specifically what you want to do and why. Tell me what candidates support your position and how voting for them will make things better (I have no time for purity candidates who don't understand how politics actually works). Telling me how horrible our side is while offering nothing concrete to make it better and (nearly) completely ignoring the bad things that the GOP is doing right now is not a way to get me to take you (generic you) seriously. What are these critics in the press doing except telling everyone else that they're doing it wrong? People who won the Presidency twice (WJC and BHO) and who were elected twice to the Senate and served with great ability as SoS (HRC). People who know more than a little about politics in the USA - in fact, they know a lot. Why do so many of these "Democrats are doing it wrong" stories neglect to note the impact of voter suppression activities by the Teabaggers? Etc., etc. You know my litany. Anyway, I'll try to take the time to be more, er, sequitur. ;-) By the by, I did see this McClatchyDC piece this evening: BALTIMORE African American activists have a message for Democrats: If you want to win back the White House, strongly consider a black person on the ticket. On their list are a growing roster of black politicians, notably Sens. Cory Booker, D-N.J. and Kamala Harris, D-Calif., former Attorney General Eric Holder and Deval Patrick, former governor of Massachusetts. Turnout among African Americans in the 2016 presidential election was the smallest in 20 years. It’s a big concern as the NAACP holds its annual convention this week in Baltimore, its first major gathering since the election. Hilary Shelton, head of the NAACP’s Washington bureau, said “It could be difficult” for Democrats in the future without an African American on the ticket. But he added that the black community is “very sophisticated” politically, and having an African American is not essential if white candidates “are speaking our language, which means that they’re addressing our concerns, they’re going to get our support.” [...] (Emphasis added.) If that is true, then it's important to understand why. Was it apathy, or was it ever more blatant voter suppression? Or a combination? Or something else? It's that kind of stuff that (it seems to me) is vitally important to know. Not whether white working-class voters in West Virginia think that Hillary is History's Greatest Monster or only the World's Greatest Monster Since 1945... :-/ My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #419,171 by Ashton 7/25/17 6:14:44 AM 7/25/17 6:24:50 AM Reply	Well, when you put it that way.. I must agree that criticism of Hillary’s M.O. in campaigning (since No ONE ever knows-FERSHURE what will be most effective in-the-moment) does, verily distract attention from the sum-total of the Repo tool-box: that perpetual war on voting rights, the penchant for Gerrymandering so blatantly that any map demonstrates exactly-why it IS bogus, then throw in the “security” McGuffin: loaded against any creature not-albino. As you say, a meeja perpetually driven by scandal-reporting, far simpler than efforts to unearth truthiness … plays plainly to our epidemic national-fecklessness. All-in-all, the whole production was a verification of one Sage’s primary-observation that, Mankind lacks Scale and Relativity (and he didn’t mean E=mc².) And feckless IS what [generic-] you are, ever to miss the real intent of the Tax-windfall-scam, nothing to do with health-at-all, the message is: “Fuck You, poor-people!/we think you are all scum and we want even more of your pittance to roll-in to our existing loot”. Anyone still unclear on this concept … will in-fact be “voting” against survival of the dis-US, of the planet and of many more species than merely homo-SAP. If such insouciance Wins in a second try for national adulthood? it’s impossible (for you or anyone) to exaggerate the massive consequences of the current Clown Car being left to run-down any humans in its wake/with IMPUNITY. How long have we got before these daily-threats: produce irreversible tragedy? … no metrics for such; meanwhile visceral disgust can't fathom just how easily manipulated is homo-SAP, so as to precipitate destruction of our sole nest. (For something called $$$, yet. Proof of worldwide mental pandemic?) Would that Piet Hein had produced a Grook capable of …penetrating even the diseased-mind. ’Muricans’ are about to become the World’s first perps of Species-cide, unless deflected. While sleep-walking, we ARE such JERKS as defy words. . . . . . . . . . 'Course if ENOUGH of us Die-Off quickly enough, the petro-toxins can't be released into the atmosphere. Cats, many other species might survive. I can live with that aka FUCK YOU! mindless meat-robots. PS: while awaiting that unscheduled planetary hygienic-cleansing: EAT the RICH (I used to know name of alleged author/connoisseur of comestibles) Edited by Ashton July 25, 2017, 06:24:50 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #419,172 by mmoffitt 7/25/17 8:05:15 AM 7/25/17 8:05:15 AM Reply	That's NOT what I'm doing. I don't want a repeat of 2016. Trump's holding at 39% approval has demonstrated to me clearly that 39% of us are beyond hope. That means that the candidates that those 39% support must not be allowed another victory. That means we need people running on something more than, "Well, at least I'm not Trump. Yeah, we largely serve the same corporate interests, but I do it less emphatically and with a friendlier face." That's what killed us over the past 35+ years and why an old Socialist goat's message resonated with so many in the Democratic Party. There's lots of ways to get Progressive causes embraced by virtually everyone, albeit not as rapidly as I would like (I understand the need to compromise iow). But if I learned anything from 2016, it's that we, as a people are too spineless to actually revolt and 39% of us are too ignorant and incapable of learning to see a need to revolt - ever. Revolution cannot happen here because Americans, as a whole, do not deserve a truly liberating revolution. So, be happy. I've become a person who understands that incremental change is all that's possible with this lot. But, it must be incremental change for the better, not worse and I say the Neo-Democrats have made things worse, not better. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,181 by Another Scott 7/25/17 12:35:08 PM 7/25/17 12:35:08 PM Reply	Ok. That means we need people running on something more than ... Emphasis added. If Lefty McLeftish isn't running, then it doesn't help to beat up on the party. If Lefty McLeftish loses the primary, then it doesn't help to beat up on the party. It's a huge sacrifice to put one's self our there to be an elected office candidate for the first time. Maybe too few Leftys are willing to make the jump because they think they don't have a chance. Like it or not, our system has parties and those parties (when they have the majority) decide the leadership in the respective various legislatures. And the leadership decides committee assignments, the rules of debate, what gets considered and what doesn't, etc. A President also has to work with parties to get things done, and to fight what they don't want to become law and policy. If Lefty McLeftish isn't there, then it only makes sense to support the candidate of the better party. "I told you so" (in so many words) isn't helpful. My $0.02. So, who are you supporting for Congress in '018? ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #419,182 by mmoffitt 7/25/17 1:36:11 PM 7/25/17 1:36:11 PM Reply	The House? In Indiana? We don't have a Democratic Party in Indiana. Recall the 2016 House election featured this guy as the Democratic candidate. Just look at the vote totals for both parties. (BTW, I did vote for Tommy, drunkard that he is). Most Hoosiers get their news from Fox and Rush Limbaugh and they like it that way. They've never been anywhere (it was up in 2016 to just shy of 3.4% of us having passports, but in the three previous years only 2.8%, 2.6% and 2.5% had passports). The majority of them are among the most racist, xenophobic, ignorant (but I repeat myself) entities you'll ever encounter. They don't want to hear anything anyone else has to say and believe this is the best place in the world to live and don't you dare try telling them otherwise. I routinely leave 70% of my ballot blank and it's not because no one is Left enough to suit my tastes (one advantage of flight training is that situational awareness is emphasized - so I'm not looking for any Lefty to ever appear on an Indiana ballot), but because in roughly 70% of cases the Republican candidate is running unopposed. Intellectually, politically, culturally and philosophically this is a hellish, hellish place. There is nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, that this state has to offer that could possibly lure any significant number of sentient beings here. That's why our universities routinely see 60% of their graduates leaving the state never to return within a year of graduation. I began saying this around 1990, but there are only three types of people who live in Indiana: 1. People who were born here. 2. People who are married to people who were born here. 3. The completely incompetent. There are probably a dozen or so outliers in our population of 6.6 million who do not fall into one of those three categories, but I've only met one in the thirty-one years I've lived here. And he's originally from England, so he hardly counts. ;0) That, in a nutshell, is why "no Lefties" run for office here. We have met the people. We know who they are. We know they cannot be saved. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,184 by Ashton 7/25/17 3:14:43 PM 7/25/17 3:14:43 PM Reply	..and when I recall that, My Gramma™ wrote the Song! Indiana I'm Coming Home (or was it "we're" ??) ... such a triviality and sooo long ago.. Well, I just may be given a pass to say.. (that rarely Permissible presumption, we see) I Knoze Exactly whatchamean :-/ Y.P.B. !!
Post #419,194 by Another Scott 7/25/17 11:06:11 PM 7/25/17 11:06:11 PM Reply	Things don't change until they do...
Post #419,259 by Another Scott 7/27/17 6:36:18 PM 7/27/17 6:36:18 PM Reply	Someone needs your help. https://canonforindiana.com/ (via a comment at Balloon-Juice) Cheers, Scott.
Post #419,276 by mmoffitt 7/28/17 8:29:38 AM 7/28/17 8:29:38 AM Reply	I wish him well, but I doubt he has a chance. The Republican incumbent down there beat a woman who grew up in NE Indiana, teaches at IU Bloomington, was a former Miss Indiana and runner-up for Miss America who became anorexic, overcame it and worked to help other young women with it and who seemed to be a decent Democrat. She lost by double-digits to the knuckle dragger's pick. Sadly, I can't vote for him. I'm about as far away from that district as you can get. I'm in the third, he's in the ninth. I wish him well, but I have grave doubts about his chances. My previous comments notwithstanding, there are some very good people here. They're just vastly outnumbered. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,189 by boxley 7/25/17 6:40:53 PM 7/25/17 6:40:53 PM Reply	cmon now, the person you ran last go round engendered a clown car full of crazy repos (well maybe jeb and graham were not wearing the big shoes and red noses) and lost. I understand that it was her turn and 20 years of working to begat her presidency so I dont blame you personally for her running but Jaysus find someone as far from that gang as possible for the next turn. Who knows after trump for a few years run Cornel West with Booker T on the democratic ticket and get a win. I would vote for them. "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #419,193 by Another Scott 7/25/17 11:04:09 PM 7/25/17 11:04:09 PM Reply	Move to strike as non-responsive. We know you don't like the Clintons and haven't for, what, the last 20-some-odd years? Who do you support, and do you think they could actually win? Why don't you talk them up rather than continuing to beat on Hillary? She's not running again you know... ;-p You know that Cornell has no chance. He's not a Democrat, either... Cheers, Scott.
Post #419,200 by mmoffitt 7/26/17 8:17:42 AM 7/26/17 8:17:42 AM Reply	Good $DEITY. Not the "not a Democrat!!!!111ONE!" thing again. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,201 by Another Scott 7/26/17 8:19:07 AM 7/26/17 8:19:07 AM Reply	Yes, it again. Why is it not an issue?
Post #419,204 by mmoffitt 7/26/17 8:31:07 AM 7/26/17 8:31:07 AM Reply	Because ... I am not a Federalist, because I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all. Thomas Jefferson
Post #419,206 by drook 7/26/17 8:59:09 AM 7/26/17 8:59:09 AM Reply	Things change On slaves: For, men, probably of any colour, but of this color we know, brought up from their infancy without necessity for thought or forecast, are by their habits rendered as incapable as children of taking care of themselves, and are extinguished promptly wherever industry is necessary for raising the young. in the mean time they are pests in society by their idleness, and the depredations to which this leads them. their amalgamation with the other colour produces a degradation to which no lover of his country, no lover of excellence in the human character can innocently consent. Thomas Jefferson -- Drew
Post #419,223 by Ashton 7/26/17 4:36:42 PM 7/26/17 4:36:42 PM Reply	Love. It. ... ... Just What these two quotes illustrate.. ..seems to moi to be ~~ All Generalizations are False [implicitly: including-This-one, er, cha. cha. cha.] Hint Language can Nevah be treated as a conveyor of simple-assed/simple-minded Boolean-fucking-Algebra!! (I wot..) ..have a Nice Drumpf-"Day" ;^>
Post #419,306 by boxley 7/28/17 10:57:44 PM 7/28/17 10:57:44 PM Reply	ROFL the rent a party winnahs from Arkansaw who hitched a ride to checks and glory are at the end of their run and you huff and puff that bernie was an outlier (which he was). So who is there in the democratic party that you could get behind? "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #419,309 by Another Scott 7/29/17 1:45:06 PM 7/29/17 1:45:06 PM Reply	(Almost) anyone who wins the primaries. I like Franken. I've heard lots of people like Kamala Harris but I know almost nothing about her. Gillibrand did good things during the various confirmation hearings and seems to know how to win fairly conservative voters in her state. Kaine is a good guy and can win over conservative voters, too, while pushing for fairly liberal policies. I have no idea how any of them would do in Iowa and New Hampshire and all the other small states that (unfortunately) seem to determine the "momentum" that determines the nominee. There are lots of good Democrats. (Almost) any of them would be preferable to any Republican I can think of. At the moment I'm more worried about the Virginia elections this fall, so I'm not paying a lot of attention to national races yet. Cheers, Scott.
Post #419,314 by boxley 7/29/17 5:51:26 PM 7/29/17 5:51:26 PM Reply	not Kaine, he needs a rubber red nose and fright wig to go with his personality "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #419,327 by mmoffitt 7/30/17 10:43:27 AM 7/30/17 10:43:27 AM Reply	Kaine can't win over Conservatives? Support for Right to Work wasn't enough? Yeah, he's a flaming Liberal all right. Seriously, Scott. I don't mind you supporting "democrats" like Kaine, but you owe it to yourself to just come out as a Republican if you're going to continue to do so. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,330 by Another Scott 7/30/17 12:25:51 PM 7/30/17 12:25:51 PM Reply	Re: Kaine can't win over Conservatives? Support for Right to Work wasn't enough? http://nhlabornews.com/2016/07/labor-reacts-to-selection-of-tim-kaine/ HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #419,296 by mmoffitt 7/28/17 2:51:30 PM 7/28/17 2:51:30 PM Reply	I thought of one for the top of the ticket. He won't run (or at least I don't think he'll run), but Eric Holder would make an excellent President. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,310 by Another Scott 7/29/17 1:45:46 PM 7/29/17 1:45:46 PM Reply	He did good things, but never having held elective office, well...
Post #419,319 by Ashton 7/29/17 6:42:25 PM 7/29/17 6:42:25 PM Reply	Insightful +5. That is: Absolutely EVERYONE has had-answered for selves the query ~~ Hey.. rilly, Can't just Anyone be Prez? ("after all, s/he can.. WILL! ... hire smarter Help, right?") The very definition of cha. cha. cha. clogging all the synapses (?) CCP [er, cubic-closest-packing] fine mimimalist-Take, I wot :-)
Post #419,320 by boxley 7/29/17 7:39:15 PM 7/29/17 7:39:15 PM Reply	maybe but he is unelectable selling machine guns to Mexico that were used to gun down Americans that headline would keep him out "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #419,159 by boxley 7/24/17 6:25:08 PM 7/24/17 6:25:08 PM Reply	how did that work for the repos during obama's second term run? "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #419,110 by Ashton 7/22/17 5:38:57 PM 7/22/17 5:50:15 PM Reply	Shall spare us both any line-by-line veto to above Ed: it seems that, while penning this screed.. Mike covered the obvious rhetoric-disconnect of previous WH-tenant. But I'll leave in my version. w.t.f. I never suggested he was a paragon, but tentatively.. at least credited him with sufficient self-awareness of his internal limitations as to: surround self with parties wiser in his negatives (as, I Presume, most actually-intelligent folks Would! I. Mean: if’n a One hasn’t figured out That necessity—and you/the observer can discern that during the politico-BS-phase:--then is not That One an obvious FAIL??) Hillary: it became obvious as, amidst the daily-din of previously-assigned [real? + bogus!] “questions” about her performance(s) ... ALL became conflated into a cacophony of …. much the same Language-murther as we now daily revisit, from the alien-Repo pod-members. With the failure of authentic ‘J’ournalism, the talent claimed by so many who do not grok that idea even a smidgeon: H’s press became ineluctably-toxic, remaining in that limbo for the duration. (All successfully enhanced by the (current) Liar-in-Chief A simple process well-grokked by this pond-scum financial manipulator, ESPECIALLY: when addressing mobs of--largely--the terminally-gullible; Welcome to Murica, Land descended from Slavers and Puritans. [Duh: OF COURSE H. was Preferable on. all. counts. to current Occupant; hell, Audrey [cat] IS.] But as Æ was fond of pointing out to us: Things should be made as simple as possible but not simpler. Right? It may be that Bernie would have proved as defective?-thus-ineffective as you opine; would that eventuality have been ANY DIFFERENT from: the well-packaged self-claimed virtues of … You Know Who: him who adopted much of the Shrub-mentality re [a host of matters from stamping-out whistle blowers, despite his signature rhetoric of opposite mindset, maintaining the bloody PATRIOT-Act and much of the Cheney—derived habits of That preposterous Last-Repo cabal.] Hmmm? (You know my views re being-possessed-by Certainty (in virtually all matters)) Do try not to cross That er, [contemporary-platitudes-ON] Red-Line [cp-OFF] Okay? ;^> Carrion When you've been running-on-empty (-Suits?) for too-long ... ... even a Chimera seems Real-er. Most-ALL the "Issues" being wrestled-with--As WeSpeak--derive from the fucking Cheney Shogunate warz-still-in_-"progress". Edited by Ashton July 22, 2017, 05:50:15 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #419,112 by Another Scott 7/22/17 6:33:51 PM 7/22/17 6:33:51 PM Reply	We may be talking past each other. Wouldn't be the first time. ;-) Of course if Bernie had won the nomination I would have voted for him. I gave him money more than once early in the campaign. I have no problem with people voting for Bernie. My problem is with Bernie, and with people who continue to use Bernie to attack Democrats and the Democratic party. Bernie isn't a Democrat. He's all about his personal brand. He didn't win the nomination. Etc., etc. (see my earlier comments in this thread and elsewhere). Yes, the Democratic Party is and should be a big tent. Factions can and should fight to get their views across and gain supporters. But if you step in the tent to fight among the Democrats, then you need to salute and say "how high" when you're asked to work for the party and her candidates. Bernie did that to some extent after the Convention. The vast majority of Bernie's voters (what, 90%?) did as well. It's just a small faction, commonly and deservedly called "Berniebros", who didn't and who continue to beat up on Clinton and the Democratic Party because they're butthurt about Bernie losing. They'd rather to continue to rail about the All Powerful DNC and Corruption™ in the Democratic Party than actually do much of anything at all to fight Trump. They're not helping us - they're hurting. That's my position. I hope it's reasonably clear now. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #419,118 by Ashton 7/22/17 10:51:13 PM 7/22/17 10:51:13 PM Reply	I can go with that narrowed-focus-->on disgruntled 'disruptors', then :-) (Wasn't aware that 'Berniebros' had become defined so er, granularly? ..seemed merely a disdainful generalization.) But then: so had I not 'framed' his persona as "Jewish atheist" -vs- our notoriously race-baiting and non-Xian-bating ... Oh, You Know.) Got Nobody on my Dance Card for next election/if there is one. (Me? I prefer gruntled disruptors) preferably a few with a Billionaire buddy ... ready, finally To Atone.. Y'know?
Post #419,127 by boxley 7/23/17 2:11:20 PM 7/23/17 2:11:20 PM Reply	Clinton National Committee? "when you're asked to work for the party and her candidates." :-) "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #419,131 by Another Scott 7/23/17 2:52:10 PM 7/23/17 2:52:10 PM Reply	Nope.
Post #419,369 by CRConrad 7/31/17 9:16:44 AM 7/31/17 9:16:44 AM Reply	A sailor is supposed to be loyal to his ship and her officers. Moran.

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