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New Churchill: a question for Peter W
Although I was born precisely eighty-three months after representatives of the Emperor of Japan signed the surrender instruments in Tokyo Bay, I passed the early years of awareness in a cultural climate utterly drenched in the aftermath of the Second World War (which, to be sure, beats growing up in a physical climate characterized by craters and shortages and/or an occupying army), with Double-you Double-you Two the Big One very much in the air, and certainly looming large in neighborhood gatherings when the beer came out and the menfolk reminisced. Although I suppose every few years another big-budget flick set in that period opens in theatres, I have the impression when I speak to young people in their twenties that the conflict resonates for them about as much as the Franco-Prussian War, which, you know, is fine, but it’ll never be the way I think of it.

Lately I’ve been revisiting the era in my reading, and one of the recent volumes took Franklin Roosevelt in his capacity as wartime commander as its topic. I think it may fairly be said of the author that he has warmed to his subject, and treated FDR, certainly by a league the most consequential American president of the last century, with a degree of sympathy that crosses over into fawning adulation and keeps on going. What I found interesting was that the plinth upon which he has erected his monumental depiction of the American leader appears to be built with material quarried from the corresponding foundation of Winston Churchill, whom our chronicler treats with a kind of amused, belittling disdain.

Well, Mr. Nigel Hamilton isn’t the first historian or biographer to fall in love with his subject. Indeed, in his books The Duel and Five Days in London, May 1940, John Lukacs is scarcely less keen a partisan of the Prime Minister, although as much the better prose stylist he contrives to be more persuasive about it. I have also twice read, the first time at eighteen and the second about ten or a dozen years ago, Churchill’s own six-volume accounting of his wartime ministry, and I think it may fairly be said that he, too, yielded to no man in admiration of his subject.

Anyway, I’m old enough to remember Churchill’s death early in 1965 being a Really Big Deal here, as of course it was in Old Blighty. My question, following this lengthy preamble, is this: how is Churchill thought of today by Britons of your generation—too young, that is, to have taken any impression of even the senescent elder statesman, but raised in families to whom his wartime heroics (if heroics they be—Mr. Hamilton begs to dissent) loomed vividly in memory? I mean, I don’t imagine that any consideration of the man crosses your mind in the course of an average day, but when his name comes up, how is he regarded in your set?

cordially,
Expand Edited by rcareaga April 17, 2017, 02:12:37 PM EDT
New Re: Churchill: a question for Peter W
I think it's fair to say that the failings of Churchill are acknowledged more than they used to. He wasn't a great peacetime Prime Minister, and I think it's probably just as well that the Conservatives lost the 1945 election; I am still minded to think that the Welfare State and the National Health Service are two of the defining elements of this sceptred isle, and they definitely wouldn't have happened on his watch. The Churchill government of 1951-1955 was a bit of a mess (Suez, Kenya, etc.); Churchill was your man for huge massive problems, but fiddly, detailed stuff (i.e. not being at war)? Nah.

He is still regarded overwhelmingly positively (he's on the back of the new plastic fiver, ffs!). His leadership of the UK, during what was a very literally existential crisis, was a key factor in ensuring that we did not play unwilling hosts to our Teutonic friends. I agree that he was enormously pleased with himself, on the whole, but then he had reason to be; he was an excellent leader, possessed of a fierce intellect and, basically, espoused all that was (at the time) deemed to be good about being British. Stiff upper lip, don't panic, etc.

And, let's face it, the man was an orator of the first water.

I would say to the House as I said to those who have joined this government: I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering.

You ask, what is our policy? I will say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: Victory. Victory at all costs—Victory in spite of all terror—Victory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival.


I think Americans may sometimes forget that, although our losses were not on the scale suffered by, say, France or Poland, we still lost a lot*. Our cities were bombed to rubble - Coventry, in particular, was flattened - and we faced a real, credible threat to our sovereignty and way of life. I don't know how it's perceived over there, but the Battle of Britain - where, against the odds, the Royal Air Force established air superiority over the English Channel and environs, thus denying Operation Sealion any chance of success - resonates deeply in the British national psyche, even more so than the naval war fought in the Atlantic to maintain supply lines, and the desperate, awful operation at Dunkirk which probably saved the Army.

Churchill had many opportunities to fuck things up, and he didn't.

*In both WW1 and WW2. I don't know if you've travelled in Europe and the UK, but pretty much every town and village has a memorial to those who fell in these conflicts; when I was growing up, pretty much everyone had (immediate) family who died in WW2 (and, to a lesser extent, WW1; great-grandmas outnumbered great-granddads to an extent not explained by the natural differential in life expectancy).
New As to your last comment,
this Yank, en-route from Paris to Denmark in spiffy new Citroën Pallas, noted the many discrete/minimalist signs 'to memorials'; finally exited into a couple or three.

They were immaculate, as if the gardener-army had left just as I arrived. Tasteful Graeco-Roman? structures appeared at a focal point and each cross, star--and ALL the foliage--were almost Too-neat. I was alone in both, maybe three visitations that day.

Contemplation was not forced, simply inevitable as consequence of the utter silence and this clear evidence of such widespread personal loss. (And this was just One 'main route' out of Paris.)
Was naturally reminded too, that 'my clan' also had an entry in that Empire of Thanatos, but I know of no comparable phenomenon here. (I have toured only a tiny sample of U.S. roads, so the sample sizes are ~comparable, I wot.)

Long Live the untarnishable Rep of that inspired-Man: (throughout the War years, at the least)
And even his elocution was utterly Fuck->You! Herr Schikelgrüber and-your legions of goose-steppers.

..we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills,
we shall never surrender ...
New I am largely to your way of thinking
I wasn’t really paying attention to world affairs yet during his second ministry, and I know that he was faulted for being an imperialist dead-ender, but at least in the popular imagination here, the wartime leader was regarded as a colossus, and Lukacs in his accounts returns repeatedly to his thesis that he was the essential, irreplaceable man for the crisis at a time when segments of the ruling class were disposed to accept for the nation a kind of genteel vassalage as the price for being left at least temporarily unmolested (he also makes the point that for the first few weeks after being named to the post, Churchill was obliged to walk a political tightrope, and not a really taut one at that).

As to oratory, my own library includes a volume of speeches selected by his grandson*, which of course features all of the Greatest Hits, but also many lesser-known pearls of great price. For example, regarding the opportunistic, ultimately ill-considered** entry of another belligerent into the conflict:
We are also told that the Italian Navy is to come out and gain sea superiority in these waters. If they seriously intend it, I shall only say that we shall be delighted to offer Signor Mussolini a free and safeguarded passage through the Strait of Gibraltar in order that he may play the part to which he aspires. There is a general curiosity in the British Fleet to find out whether the Italians are up to the level they were at in the last war or whether they have fallen off at all.
—We may hope that the Italian leader did not sneeze when these words were reported to him.

I think even those Americans who merely came of age in the aftermath, and even many who were of the age of reason during the main event, tend toward a foreshortened view of the conflict. We were, after all, well back from the actual theatres of war. No one was bombed apart from a distant archipelago, and while the butcher’s bill topped four hundred thousand dead, this was about one-third per capita the British toll, and practically a rounding error*** measured against the carnage in central and eastern Europe (the Soviet Union had some real demographic distortions going there for a while after the war). I’m grateful that North America was spared the wear and tear on the physical plant that large swatches of Eurasia endured, but I think a bit of that might have had a salutary effect on some of our generals during the Cold War: some of them, particularly in the USAF, were champing at the bit to have at the Red Russians, whereas their counterparts, having endured their country laid waste the one time, regarded the prospect of a nuclear encore with a pardonable want of enthusiasm.

Regarding cities bombed to rubble, I think it may fairly be said that Arthur Harris saw to it that Coventry was repaid with compound interest. A lamentable legacy of the conflict is that the aerial bombardment of civilian populations, at one time regarded with a horror approaching that in which the use of poison gas was held, has now come to be taken for granted as a legitimate instrument of warfare.

I’m gratified to learn that WSC still holds a place of esteem in his nation’s memory. I found the condescension with which he was treated in Hamilton’s account off-putting.

cordially,

*Also Winston S. Churchill, son of Randolph, of whom Evelyn Waugh wrote, on the occasion of the former’s undergoing surgery to remove a benign brain tumor, “A typical triumph of modern science to find the only part of Randolph that was not malignant and remove it.”

**It might have been a difficult needle to thread, but had he contrived to keep Italy notionally neutral even though obviously sympathetic to Germany’s cause, he might have had a postwar career resembling Franco’s. Instead, of course, he perished ignobly, and gave rise to coarse jokes in the period of my childhood, such as “How did Mussolini end up with twenty-seven bullets in him? Two thousand Italian marksmen.”

***A rounding error in aggregate and not, to be sure, in specific bereavements.
Expand Edited by rcareaga April 17, 2017, 11:47:37 AM EDT
New Churchill was the greatest war leader in history!
No one was more prepared to lead, or saw the war coming as early, or understood in detail what had to be done. It was an existential war for the UK and for that matter Western democracies.

I just wish his 6 tomes were written later so more of the secret stuff could have been mentioned.

But then, I was living (barely) in Germany before the Normandy invasion. After the war ended my father rapidly moved the family out of the American Zone to the British Zone. Americans were shipping folks like us back to the Soviet Union, no questions asked. The British were setting up UN refuge camps. The Soviets were allowed to come to the camps and offer a return, but everyone knew better. The man who coined the term Iron Curtain saw what was coming.
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New certain streets have curtain coinage
The man who coined the term Iron Curtain saw what was coming.
True enough, I suppose. Problem is, the man who coined the term (in the original sense of that idiom) in this connection wasn’t Churchill:
The third, Stalin, follows much more far-reaching goals than his two comrades. He certainly does not plan to announce them publicly, but he and his 200 million slaves will fight bitterly and toughly for them. He sees the world differently than do those plutocratic brains. He sees a future in which the entire world is subjected to the dictatorship of the Moscow Internationale, which means the Kremlin. His dream may seem fantastic and absurd, but if we Germans do not stop him, it will undoubtedly become reality. That will happen as follows: If the German people lay down their weapons, the Soviets, according to the agreement between Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin, would occupy all of East and Southeast Europe along with the greater part of the Reich. An iron curtain would fall over this enormous territory controlled by the Soviet Union, behind which nations would be slaughtered.
—Joseph Goebbels, “Das Jahr 2000,” 25 February 1945. You may read the rest here. (I only knew this because it was mentioned in Richard J. Evans’ The Third Reich at War, the concluding volume of his Third Reich trilogy, which I read this past month.)

cordially,
Expand Edited by rcareaga April 18, 2017, 09:12:29 AM EDT
New Re: certain streets have curtain coinage
OK, so it looks like Churchill appropriated it. At least he had to translate it to proper English! :)

But your citation also says "Goebbels did not coin the phrase, but his use brought it to prominence."
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New iron commies
Joey G appears to be the first to have employed the line with specific reference to the Bolshies.

cordially,
New Funny how sometimes something can set off a world conflagration...
From Rand's linked source:
At a dramatic moment in European history, it ["England" -CRC] declared war against the Reich, unleashing a world conflagration that not only went out of control but threatens to leave England itself in ruins. A tiny extension of Germany into purely German territories to the East was sufficient ground to see a threat to the European balance of power.
...and sometimes not: Replace "Germany" with "Russia" in that last sentence, and that's exactly what's been going on for at least a decade now. But none of our intrepid world leaders dare even whisper that perhaps it's time some day soon to reign that bastard Putler in "with extreme prejudice".
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New We're all cowards now.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New New book" "Churchill and Orwell"
Looks a treat, no?
Both George Orwell and Winston Churchill came close to death in the mid-1930's—Orwell shot in the neck in a trench line in the Spanish Civil War, and Churchill struck by a car in New York City. If they'd died then, history would scarcely remember them. At the time, Churchill was a politician on the outs, his loyalty to his class and party suspect. Orwell was a mildly successful novelist, to put it generously. No one would have predicted that by the end of the 20th century they would be considered two of the most important people in British history for having the vision and courage to campaign tirelessly, in words and in deeds, against the totalitarian threat from both the left and the right. In a crucial moment, they ...
     Churchill: a question for Peter W - (rcareaga) - (10)
         Re: Churchill: a question for Peter W - (pwhysall) - (2)
             As to your last comment, - (Ashton)
             I am largely to your way of thinking - (rcareaga)
         Churchill was the greatest war leader in history! - (a6l6e6x) - (6)
             certain streets have curtain coinage - (rcareaga) - (4)
                 Re: certain streets have curtain coinage - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                     iron commies - (rcareaga)
                 Funny how sometimes something can set off a world conflagration... - (CRConrad) - (1)
                     We're all cowards now. -NT - (mmoffitt)
             New book" "Churchill and Orwell" - (Ashton)

The fat Penguin is back stage putting on her Valkyrie costume and warming up her voice, even as we speak.
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