IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New 'Vietnam: The War That Killed Trust' ..blongs here (to a metaphysical-Certainty)
NYT
Vietnam: The War That Killed Trust

The legacy of the war still shapes America, even if most of us are too young to remember it.

Vietnam '67
Karl Marlantes
VIETNAM '67 JAN. 7, 2017
Intro, with a few early comments inserted by NYT:
In the early spring of 1967, I was in the middle of a heated 2 a.m. hallway discussion with fellow students at Yale about the Vietnam War. I was from a small town in Oregon, and I had already joined the Marine Corps Reserve. My friends were mostly from East Coast prep schools. One said that Lyndon B. Johnson was lying to us about the war. I blurted out, “But … but an American president wouldn’t lie to Americans!” They all burst out laughing.

When I told that story to my children, they all burst out laughing, too. Of course presidents lie. All politicians lie. God, Dad, what planet are you from?

Before the Vietnam War, most Americans were like me. After the Vietnam War, most Americans are like my children.

America didn’t just lose the war, and the lives of 58,000 young men and women; Vietnam changed us as a country. In many ways, for the worse: It made us cynical and distrustful of our institutions, especially of government. For many people, it eroded the notion, once nearly universal, that part of being an American was serving your country.

[RECENT COMMENTS]

Tabula Rasa 1 day ago
Societal cohesion with common threads of experiences can bind disparate and divergent points of view ? Perhaps not, however an...
joepanzica 1 day ago
The author, a decent man, hasn't yet learned the lesson Vietnam As revealed when he equates the military to "serving one's country". The...
Loretta Marjorie Chardin 1 day ago
When are we going to stop the canard that "service" - a euphemism for war to further the U.S. imperialistic "interests,", is something...

[SEE ALL COMMENTS]

But not everything about the war was negative. As a Marine lieutenant in Vietnam, I saw how it threw together young men from diverse racial and ethnic backgrounds and forced them to trust one another with their lives. It was a racial crucible that played an enormous, if often unappreciated, role in moving America toward real integration.

And yet even as Vietnam continues to shape our country, its place in our national consciousness is slipping. Some 65 percent of Americans are under 45 and so unable to even remember the war. Meanwhile, our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, our involvement in Syria, our struggle with terrorism — these conflicts are pushing Vietnam further into the background.

All the more reason, then, for us to revisit the war and its consequences for today. This essay inaugurates a new series by The Times, Vietnam ’67, that will examine how the events of 1967 and early 1968 shaped Vietnam, America and the world. Hopefully, it will generate renewed conversation around that history, now half a century past.

What readers take away from that conversation is another matter. If all we do is debate why we lost, or why we were there at all, we will miss the truly important question: What did the war do to us as Americans?

CYNICISM

Vietnam changed the way we looked at politics. We became inured to our leaders lying in the war: the fabricated Gulf of Tonkin incident, the number of “pacified provinces” (and what did “pacified” mean, anyway?), the inflated body counts.

People talked about Johnson’s “credibility gap.” This was a genteel way of saying that the president was lying. Then, however, a credibility gap was considered unusual and bad. By the end of the war, it was still considered bad, but it was no longer unusual. When politicians lie today, fact checkers might point out what is true, but then everyone moves on.

[More]
(Not to imply here that, maybe understanding a few Lessons learned during this ill-conceived and later LBJ obsessionally-managed clusterfuck? ..could assuage the damages borne by the obviously-maimed there/here ..and then all their close relatives).

I suppose that NYT will not focus upon so much not-learned: such as the frequent Imperial actions which belie our so often sanctimonious pretenses, as we Butt-in just about everywhere. (C'mon, who'd believe a truly Murican-'soul-searching exposé, anyway !?)

Bon {{Sƒorzando of approaching/marauding helicopter noises}} appetít.
New Did presidents change, or just our perception of them?
Did people become cynical because politicians had actually changed, or did we just find out about it?

It's easy to say - and it has been - that society changed because this was the first televised war. Sure, that's a sufficient explanation.

But for the sake of argument, let's suppose it was the politicians that changed. What might have led to that?
--

Drew
New The Presidents didn't change.
What changed was that (in a very smally way) Americans realized that their government was capable of producing propaganda. They still don't fully understand the full extent of governmental (and corporate!) propaganda efforts. Most, I'd say, will maintain today that the Soviet government produced and Russian government produces vastly more propaganda than does ours. Which is, or course, horseshit. We are second to none in the production of vastly more effective propaganda both in the public and private sector - with the private sector just nudging out our government. Viet Nam, for the first time peeled back the tiniest edge of the mask our Presidents, government officials and corporate masters have always been presenting to us.
bcnu,
Mikem

Social Media is for Sociopaths.
New Dunno.
Weren't huge numbers of people disillusioned when we didn't win the Korean War? And before that, weren't huge numbers of people disillusioned when we didn't conquer/liberate Canada in the War of 1812?

E.g. Wikipedia:

Harry S. Truman[edit]

In April 1951, President Harry S. Truman fired General of the Army Douglas MacArthur. Congressional Republicans responded with numerous calls for Truman's head. The Senate held hearings, and a year later, Congressmen George H. Bender and Paul W. Shafer separately introduced House bills 607 and 614 against President Truman. The resolutions were referred to the Judiciary Committee[9] which, being run by Democrats, sat on them. However, the US Senate held extensive hearings on the matter.


Lest we forget, MacArthur tried to expand the Korean War into a war with China (which by treaty would have also involved the USSR).

And before that there was the "Who lost China?" battles.

Lots and lots of people on the Right have been convinced that the government can't be trusted, the government is filled with spies and traitors, the government wants to enslave every "real" American...

There's lots more polling now, and lots more hearing about polling now. I dunno if opinions among a substantial fraction of the population really changed in a long-term way, and if it has, whether it can be shown to be the result of Vietnam or Watergate or Iran-Contra or whatever.

NORC GSS - Can People Be Trusted? (1972 - 2014)

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New This bit...
But not everything about the war was negative. As a Marine lieutenant in Vietnam, I saw how it threw together young men from diverse racial and ethnic backgrounds and forced them to trust one another with their lives. It was a racial crucible that played an enormous, if often unappreciated, role in moving America toward real integration.
...rings true to me.

The ironic thing is, it doesn't really take a war. Just introduce conscription, compulsory military -- or other nationally-useful -- training for everyone.
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New I dunno
The Air Force Academy has become a bit of a Christianist boot camp. The officer ranks are of course different from the potential conscript population, but tolerance is not on the menu.

I think the article is probably right that it wasn't just the draft that changed things. Training together isn't the same as fighting together.
--

Drew
     'Vietnam: The War That Killed Trust' ..blongs here (to a metaphysical-Certainty) - (Ashton) - (5)
         Did presidents change, or just our perception of them? - (drook) - (2)
             The Presidents didn't change. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                 Dunno. - (Another Scott)
         This bit... - (CRConrad) - (1)
             I dunno - (drook)

Well, all right then.
44 ms