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New Interesting gizmo for sale on Prime Day at Amazon
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B019Z6HS86/ - $699 for Prime members.

With another 20 years of development (for longer range and higher speeds), and proper paths for people to ride safely on, I can see things like this making a huge difference in commuting, traffic, air pollution, and the like.

Apparently a Chinese version (not UL listed, other differences) is half the price...

Cheers,
Scott.
New A Segway you can sit on?
New That's what I thought ... look at the second product image
--

Drew
New It looks like you "steer" it with your knees.
http://www.segwayminipro.com/

Easy To Ride

You don’t need hours of practice to master the miniPRO. We use decades of combined industry knowledge to simplify the miniPRO riding experience. The ergonomic design utilizes precision sensors to capture your body’s movements and maintain your balance. The knee control bar allows you to steer more easily and more precisely than two-wheeled hoverboards.


It would probably be too much of a challenge to balance, steer, etc., while seated. At least right now.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Don't forget what the Segway started out as
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBOT



Balance and steering while seated is solved, with a joystick anyway.
--

Drew
New Good point.
That gizmo probably cost a lot more than $700 though. :-)

But maybe balance really is a solved problem now - Self-balancing inverted pendulum with Arduino.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Arduino..
appears to be the/ a?/ 'Solution' for those who eschew the messiness of learning how to connect components which mirror basic electrical/electronic functions ... on physical boards.
Kinda like substituting some computer-logical decisions for the Analog matters (which matter.. awfully, sometimes) ie. Electronics-light?

Guess it's better than manifest impotence (even to visualize how-it-Is that? paralleled resistances follow that simple addition of 1/x etc.)
At any rate, one shall run-up-against Maxwell's equations sooner or later, or forever stay with 'light'. Right?

Kinda a cute idea though, if one has the disposable income ... just to mess with one of those 2-wheel platforms in just this plug-together way..
Give it a brain and you can call out, Jeeves! bring me a Brandy Alexander, chilled ;-^>
New :-) People are doing lots of neat things with them. There are lots of similar controllers, too.
Adafruit for $7.00 for 1.



The electronics are so cheap now that just about everything electric could have various logic functions built in. Kids playing with them would seem to be this generation's Tinker Toys and Erector Sets.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I think George would still fall off...
New rofl. :-)
New Segway: a solution looking for a problem
Need to get somewhere and you're able-bodied? A bike is better for you, and is quicker, and has somewhere to put your shit (panniers). Also, no batteries. Also, brakes that everyone knows how to use. Also, considerably less dorky.

What if you're not able-bodied? There are mobility devices that are better (they let you sit and have cargo capacity) and if you need speed, there's public transport or a car. If you're slightly impaired (e.g. just horrifically unfit), there's e-bikes, which will power you along quite nicely.

These things are not fast enough to go in bike lanes, but they are too fast to be safely integrated with pedestrians. Bikes plus pedestrians isn't perfect, but at least a bike is reasonably large and visible. With this you'd just have a tall person zooming towards you with no visual cue that they're going way faster than you expect.

ETA: To expand on the last point a bit: New modes of transport don't just integrate with the current transport network. Look at bikes - literally hundreds of millions if not billions of daily users worldwide for a century, and yet we're only just now getting wise to the idea that some separate infrastructure for them would be a good thing.

The idea that there would in 20 years be separate Segway lanes - for the tens or hundreds of thousands of worldwide users - is just daft.
Expand Edited by pwhysall July 13, 2016, 01:51:06 AM EDT
New Maybe.
Bikes do have lots of advantages. But this Segway thing has a tiny footprint and would be easier to take from home to the office. It's likely easier to integrate batteries and motors in them than strapping them onto a traditional bike, also too.

The Segway does have issues - I'm not sure I would want to be on one going 15+ MPH. But going fast on a bike has issues too, especially in high density situations.

I was thinking more along the lines of general commuting - replacing 2 ton cars with something much more compact for single commuters (at least for short distances - getting to the bus stop/train station/car pool stop). Neither bikes or these 2 wheel things are appropriate in the rain or the snow or when the air is thick with pollution. Maybe the individual transportation gizmo of the should have 4 wheels and a small weather-proof enclosure for the rider. But then weight goes up, making it more of an engineering challenge.

We used to have horses and buggies. Eventually cities got large enough that that was impractical. I think lots of places are getting that way with cars and trucks (the death toll rose to at least 18) - something new is going to follow.

Cheers,
Scott.
New You're both completely missing the point
These things are for playing Pokemon Go. Now you can go back to sedentary video games but still catch them all.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New D'Oh!
New It doesn't have a tiny footprint, though.
It needs space around it whilst out and about, it needs a charging station, and if the battery goes flat, you're carrying or pushing it.

It's a great idea with no practical application that isn't better served by something else.

I would further disagree with your assessment of e-Bikes - they're a solved problem. They just look like regular, if slightly dorky, bikes.



And for general commuting - a bike is a better answer. They can (and do) share road space with cars. OK, the relationship is often fractious but it's getting better.

Yes, cities are getting congested with cars and larger vehicles, and yes, something new is going to follow. That something is large-scale commuter cycling - for lots of reasons:

1. It's cheap; you can get a bike for very little (example*)
2. It's easy; everyone can ride a bike
3. It's good for you; people in the West are fat enough, and they don't need any more excuses to do no exercise.
4. Cars and pedestrians and other vehicles already know (in theory :D) how to co-operate and get along with cyclists.

You'll never be able to justify dedicated lanes for these things (at a thousand bucks discounted, they're rich-people toys), but they're not fast enough to be anything but mobile chicanes in bike lanes, and will probably find themselves excluded.

I dislike these things; they're a distraction from proper, actual sustainable transport (i.e. walking and cycling), they require a lot of infrastructure for no benefit (electric and hybrid cars offset their requirements by being much more useful than personal transporters), they don't integrate well with the existing transport network, and they make you fat.


* I know very little about the ins and outs of specific bike models; my knowledge of transport modes is at the larger scale. This specific bike is probably crap. However, it'll get you to work.
New Dunno about cheap.
Yeah, you can get a bike off e-Bay or your local pawn shop for $100 if you look around.

E-bikes are a different matter. This one is $1600.



But it claims 30-40 mile range with "electric assist" for speeds up to 22 mph.

As you say, the Segway is not ready to replace real commuting transportation. But I think it's worth keeping an eye on (and there's no reason that I can see why it can't share bike lanes).

More choices are good! Why should we be locked into human transportation designs from the 1880s?

Cheers,
Scott.
New So that one's $1600
So what? They start at about £300-£400.

This one, from the same website, is $549.

I've explained why a Segway can't share a bike lane. It's too slow. Remember, 12MPH is its top speed (of a regular Segway, not the cut-down thing up there, which tops out at 10MPH), not its regular speed, which will likely be somewhere between half and two-thirds of that. Even unfit lazy people like me can reach 15MPH on a bike without dying horribly and regular bike commuters do 20-25MPH as a matter of course. And how do you stop one in an emergency? If you have to slam on the brakes at 10-12MPH, how do you not faceplant? (An emergency stop at 5MPH - a brisk walking pace - is probably less dramatic)

Your last point is weird. So what if the bike design is from a hundred and thirty years ago?

More choices are good, if the choices are good. Hoverboards (hahaha! they're no such thing!) and Segways are just toys.
Expand Edited by pwhysall July 13, 2016, 10:42:08 AM EDT
Expand Edited by pwhysall July 13, 2016, 10:43:25 AM EDT
Expand Edited by pwhysall July 13, 2016, 10:43:49 AM EDT
New So you're planning on shorting Ninebot then? :-) We'll see.
Virginia law:

"Electric power-assisted bicycle" means a vehicle that travels on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground and is equipped with (i) pedals that allow propulsion by human power and (ii) an electric motor with an input of no more than 1,000 watts that reduces the pedal effort required of the rider. Operators must be at least 14 years old or be under the supervision of someone at least 18 years old. An electric power-assisted bicycle shall be considered a vehicle when operated on a highway.

[...]

“Motorized skateboard or scooter" means every vehicle, regardless of the number of its wheels in contact with the ground, that (i) has no seat, but is designed to be stood upon by the operator, (ii) has no manufacturer-issued vehicle identification number, and (iii) is powered by an electric motor having an input of no more than 1,000 watts or a gasoline engine that displaces less than 36 cubic centimeters. The term "motorized skateboard or scooter" includes vehicles with or without handlebars, but does not include "electric personal assistive mobility devices."

An electric personal assistive mobility device is a self-balancing two-nontandem-wheeled device that is designed to transport only one person and is powered by an electric propulsion system that limits the device's maximum speed to fifteen miles per hour or less. Such devices must be equipped with a system that will enable the user to bring the device to a controlled stop. These devices may be operated on highways with a maximum speed limit of 25 miles per hour or less if no sidewalk is provided or if use of the sidewalk is prohibited. Operators must be at least 14 years old or under the supervision of a person who is at least 18 years old. An electric personal assistive mobility device is considered a vehicle when operated on a highway.


The laws can (and will) be changed as the technology improves.

Bolt can run at 28 MPH. There's no physical reason why something like a Segway can't be safe running that fast, but the problem is obviously much simpler at lower speeds.

We'll see.

Just to be clear, I think this Segway thing is an interesting toy. Even though home is only about 11 miles from work, I wouldn't even consider one of these things for commuting now. In 10 years? Who knows.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: So you're planning on shorting Ninebot then? :-) We'll see.
There's no physical reason why something like a Segway can't be safe running that fast, but the problem is obviously much simpler at lower speeds.

The only way you could make a Segway safe at 25MPH would be to fully enclose it in a roll/crash cage and harness the rider. This is only for the rider's safety; you would have to go through a whole different process to arrive at a design that maximised pedestrian safety.

At which point it's a different device entirely.

Unless you have an idea for a scenario in which a Segway rapidly decelerates from 25-0MPH in a short space of time without chucking the rider at the scenery and/or pavement.

Some things can't be made safe in a practical way. A 25MPH Segway falls into that category, I think.
New Bolt doesn't stop instantly either. ;-)
55 mph electric skateboard (4:24)

Yeah, a safe 30 MPH electric scooter/self-balancing thing would be challenging. Maybe instead of 2 or 4 wheels, it'll have 1. Who knows.

Cheers,
Scott.
New That's just dumb
One pebble or crack in the pavement and you're down. Much worse, a kid steps off the curb in front of you and you've got effectively no brakes.

This isn't like the introduction of cars, where people weren't used to judging speed. We now teach our kids to look both ways, and we learn to judge how fast they're coming and when it's safe to step in front of them. These things are up against laws of physics: They're so top-heavy you can't brake or turn aggressively without going down.

They can't share space with cars because the roads aren't smooth enough, and they can't share space with pedestrians because they can't maneuver.
--

Drew
New It's apparently not that bad in the real world.
http://phys.org/news/2016-06-segway-hoverboard-la-streets.html

They'll only get better over time, but it might not be a linear progression.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I had one of these for a while
http://www.nycewheels.com/ezee-forza-electric-bike.html

Max speed was about 21 MPH before human assist. So I topped out about 25 MPH. Acceleration beat most cars from lights. Shocked those drivers. Went about 10 miles between charges. Highly recommended.

Gave it to my daughter for that critical final year in high school. Too soon to trust her with a car, yet it gave her a bit of independence, that 1st taste of freedom that was critical for her development.
New Neat. Thanks for the pointer.
New Seconding that experience, via a Whizzer™ motor-bike
I quite remember showing up at a house ... with $50 USD; next to return-self to Pacific Beach (S.Diego area) via A POWERED bike! == Freedom!!

And it was; you got that exactly right.
(I almost talked my mater into allowing me to tackle Palomar Mt./the 200" Hale telescope, then largest evah.)
Still unclear if it could have made the grade ... there's probably lots of data re that climb though, and was then. They had to get that mirror delivered. (I then had no idea I'd soon be in a place where the original drawings were on the mech-drawing-class wall. Synchronicity-before-Jung, yet.)

Anyway, a car was out of question for a 14 yo HS Jr. Then. But that experience launched me later, onto a Lambretta--the Work-of-Art model--and n+1 bikes.


(And, unless I've been inhabiting a space-warp near a worm-hole, it seems that I survived them all; may your daughter acquire similar survival skillz, early on!)
New Integrating with the current infrastructure
To expand on the last point a bit: New modes of transport don't just integrate with the current transport network. Look at bikes - literally hundreds of millions if not billions of daily users worldwide for a century, and yet we're only just now getting wise to the idea that some separate infrastructure for them would be a good thing.

Cars co-opted and displaced carriages from their infrastructure pretty thoroughly. If something compellingly better than walking comes along it could co-opt our current sidewalks. Main reason I don't see that happening is that in order to replace walking you'd have to do it for virtually everyone. That ain't happening.
--

Drew
New Cars were rapidly *massively* better than carriages
...and were also pretty much of a size and shape, too.

Also, that took place in a much less-regulated world.
New Agreed
That's why I said displacing walking won't happen.

You can fantasize a sci-fi future where people have real hoverboards that self-drive so you can just stand on them while they whisk you along. Forget the tech, just assume it's possible that these things could take up no more room than the toys we're currently calling hoverboards. Who's going to pay to give them to everyone? Because if you don't, the slow walkers are going to get in the way of the floaters.

When cars replaced carriages, those who couldn't afford them eventually moved to the sidewalks. Take over the sidewalks and where to the poor folks go?
--

Drew
New I want the conveyors from Caves of Steel.
New Interestingly, for a while in between there, as bicycles replaced horses for riding...
...bikes were all over streets and roads too, and much more numerous than automobiles.

Just as well as talking about how "bikes need a separate infrastructure", you could argue that they already had one, which was then usurped by the car -- then the indignation can be all about "why didn't they build a separate infrastructure _for cars_?".

Like, "Stay on your motorways, and off our country roads and city streets!"
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New My first encounter with København..
The tiny Sprite was surrounded by hundreds of BICYCLES (tis was in '60.) They loved the little red car.

Smart, them Danes..
New Nope, wrong: That one is apparently ideal for at least some disabled people.
If the bastards -- the usual suspects, maybe she should be glad she didn't get beat up -- let you use it, that is: https://medium.com/@treyharris/united-airlines-made-me-abandon-my-mobility-device-at-the-gate-before-my-honeymoon-8d74eee04038
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
     Interesting gizmo for sale on Prime Day at Amazon - (Another Scott) - (31)
         A Segway you can sit on? -NT - (pwhysall) - (8)
             That's what I thought ... look at the second product image -NT - (drook)
             It looks like you "steer" it with your knees. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                 Don't forget what the Segway started out as - (drook) - (3)
                     Good point. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                         Arduino.. - (Ashton) - (1)
                             :-) People are doing lots of neat things with them. There are lots of similar controllers, too. - (Another Scott)
                 I think George would still fall off... -NT - (scoenye) - (1)
                     rofl. :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
         Segway: a solution looking for a problem - (pwhysall) - (21)
             Maybe. - (Another Scott) - (13)
                 You're both completely missing the point - (malraux) - (1)
                     D'Oh! -NT - (Another Scott)
                 It doesn't have a tiny footprint, though. - (pwhysall) - (10)
                     Dunno about cheap. - (Another Scott) - (9)
                         So that one's $1600 - (pwhysall) - (8)
                             So you're planning on shorting Ninebot then? :-) We'll see. - (Another Scott) - (7)
                                 Re: So you're planning on shorting Ninebot then? :-) We'll see. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                     Bolt doesn't stop instantly either. ;-) - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                         That's just dumb - (drook) - (1)
                                             It's apparently not that bad in the real world. - (Another Scott)
                                 I had one of these for a while - (crazy) - (2)
                                     Neat. Thanks for the pointer. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                     Seconding that experience, via a Whizzer™ motor-bike - (Ashton)
             Integrating with the current infrastructure - (drook) - (5)
                 Cars were rapidly *massively* better than carriages - (pwhysall) - (2)
                     Agreed - (drook) - (1)
                         I want the conveyors from Caves of Steel. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                 Interestingly, for a while in between there, as bicycles replaced horses for riding... - (CRConrad) - (1)
                     My first encounter with København.. - (Ashton)
             Nope, wrong: That one is apparently ideal for at least some disabled people. - (CRConrad)

The ice cream truck driver in the neighborhood speaks Nadsat.
119 ms