I'm not arguing that humans are perfectable or can make perfectable systems.

I am in favor of looking at the circumstances surrounding people who break their oath and leak a mountain of information by hoovering up everything they can get their hands on.

Reread some of the SCMP interviews. Snowden was upset that the NSA was spying on China.

“The reality is that I have acted at great personal risk to help the public of the world, regardless of whether that public is American, European, or Asian.”

The hubris of the man is astounding. It fits with the rest of his reported childish postings:

As a twentysomething, nerdy NSA leaker Edward Snowden, who just turned 30 on the lam, frequented chat rooms and message boards under the name "TheTrueHOOHA." He held forth about anime and Ron Paul ("He's so dreamy"), which fits the profile of a Redditor-type, but IRC chat logs revealed by Ars Technica today are much more surprising: In 2009, Snowden went off on the New York Times, WikiLeaks, and government leakers in general.

He even offered a potential punishment, according to Ars Technica's transcripts:

[TheTrueHOOHA] HOLY SHIT
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/washington/11iran.html?_r=1&hp
[TheTrueHOOHA] WTF NYTIMES
[TheTrueHOOHA] Are they TRYING to start a war?
Jesus christ
they're like wikileaks
[User19] they're just reporting, dude.
[TheTrueHOOHA] They're reporting classified shit
[User19] shrugs
[TheTrueHOOHA] about an unpopular country surrounded by enemies already engaged in a war
and about our interactions with said country regarding planning sovereignity violations of another country
you don't put that shit in the NEWSPAPER
[User19] meh
[TheTrueHOOHA] moreover, who the fuck are the anonymous sources telling them this?
[TheTrueHOOHA] those people should be shot in the balls.

Snowden was (wrongly) put in a position of responsibility. He (allegedly) took advantage of his position to steal a mountain of classified information. To pump up his ego, he released it to his buddy Glenn Greenwald and friends, then fled to China and gave press conferences about how wonderful and selfless he is. He then fled to Russia and allowed himself to be used as a pawn in a Putin press conference.

He is in way, way over his head. And the process that allowed him to be hired at BAH and gain access to so much information was broken. I'd like to think that BAH suffered consequences for that, but ...

All that said, I don't think for a minute that we can construct systems that cannot be twisted to nefarious ends. But I also do not think that a single person can be permitted to claim for himself knowledge and expertise that counterweights all the legal and systemic checks-and-balances.

MLK had a huge impact, but not for a single act, and not by himself. He helped build a system that had internal battles over the proper way forward and the best intermediate goals to strive for. A 30-something IT guy cannot take the system into his own hands and do what he wants with it because he thinks that it's somehow wrong for the NSA to spy on China. Or that he has the right to take secret information that he has sworn an oath to protect and give it to whomever he wants.

Systems are imperfect, and they can be wrong. But individuals who go around important systems are wrong more often than not. Look at Bundy. Look at McVeigh. Look at Trump.

Snowden wouldn't get much more than pity from me if he had leaked all the stuff, then called a press conference in DC, gave his spiel about how he did it to protect China from the NSA, and then waited to be arrested. I would have thought that he was a misguided idealist, perhaps. Especially given his diametrically-opposed professed views of less than a decade earlier. But he seems to be a giant narcissist who thinks that he's smarter and more virtuous than everyone in the US Government.

Maybe I'll change my mind in a few years, but I wouldn't bet on it.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.

OK a fair exposition of your (and some others') character analysis of this/"any old?" young guy, on a self-assigned MIssion.

So then.. we were expecting, perhaps Epictetus, Montaigne and Kurt V. in an attractive wrapper?
OTOH, from Mozart to Shelley to Dennis Brain (Fr. horn player killed in a Canadian air crash IIRC) lots of exceptionals at or near-30: distinguished selves. Dying at their only local-peak, leaving us to miserably-Miss what we imagine would have become. If. Only.

We now KNOW that Murica (not alone, but still.. counter to all the propaganda of our innate-Goodness) Would/Did.. tell-any-lie/globally as locally; spread any sanctimonious self-aggrandizement as from the first ("Remember the Maine" cha. cha. cha.) or contemporaneously (The Tonkin Gulf LIE to massively intensify the Vietnam pre-Iraq Fiasco. Etc.fucking-Etc.

Weighing the [+]s [-]s of this opera would need a book-shelf of tl;drs, as our grey cells weary of perpetually debating such un-Resolvables as:

JUST *HOW* FUCKED-UP *IS* -??_ this chimerical/ largely imaginary/over-hyped 'THING' called -by at least-One- The dis-U.S.A. Hmmmm?
.
.
.
"We" bloody-Began as a Slaver State, as we commenced our perpetual hypocrisy: within the earliest documents, with phrases like

All Men Are Created Equal

... cha. cha. cha.

This young guy did, at least: allow any/all of us to become Truly! more current on, the State of the U.S. and its (Governmental) world-view, as well as demonstrating the degree of dissembling in Govt. rhetoric to the masses ..previously and just-Then. (Almost any Useful-factoid in this morass Would have been Classified [X] ... the Real-est problem that any 'democratic' ideals must face, in a world run just like The School for Scoundrels

Post #410,442 by Another Scott 5/25/16 10:25:57 PM 5/25/16 10:25:57 PM Reply	I'm not arguing that humans are perfectable or can make perfectable systems. I am in favor of looking at the circumstances surrounding people who break their oath and leak a mountain of information by hoovering up everything they can get their hands on. Reread some of the SCMP interviews. Snowden was upset that the NSA was spying on China. “The reality is that I have acted at great personal risk to help the public of the world, regardless of whether that public is American, European, or Asian.” The hubris of the man is astounding. It fits with the rest of his reported childish postings: As a twentysomething, nerdy NSA leaker Edward Snowden, who just turned 30 on the lam, frequented chat rooms and message boards under the name "TheTrueHOOHA." He held forth about anime and Ron Paul ("He's so dreamy"), which fits the profile of a Redditor-type, but IRC chat logs revealed by Ars Technica today are much more surprising: In 2009, Snowden went off on the New York Times, WikiLeaks, and government leakers in general. He even offered a potential punishment, according to Ars Technica's transcripts: [TheTrueHOOHA] HOLY SHIT http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/washington/11iran.html?_r=1&hp [TheTrueHOOHA] WTF NYTIMES [TheTrueHOOHA] Are they TRYING to start a war? Jesus christ they're like wikileaks [User19] they're just reporting, dude. [TheTrueHOOHA] They're reporting classified shit [User19] shrugs [TheTrueHOOHA] about an unpopular country surrounded by enemies already engaged in a war and about our interactions with said country regarding planning sovereignity violations of another country you don't put that shit in the NEWSPAPER [User19] meh [TheTrueHOOHA] moreover, who the fuck are the anonymous sources telling them this? [TheTrueHOOHA] those people should be shot in the balls. Snowden was (wrongly) put in a position of responsibility. He (allegedly) took advantage of his position to steal a mountain of classified information. To pump up his ego, he released it to his buddy Glenn Greenwald and friends, then fled to China and gave press conferences about how wonderful and selfless he is. He then fled to Russia and allowed himself to be used as a pawn in a Putin press conference. He is in way, way over his head. And the process that allowed him to be hired at BAH and gain access to so much information was broken. I'd like to think that BAH suffered consequences for that, but ... All that said, I don't think for a minute that we can construct systems that cannot be twisted to nefarious ends. But I also do not think that a single person can be permitted to claim for himself knowledge and expertise that counterweights all the legal and systemic checks-and-balances. MLK had a huge impact, but not for a single act, and not by himself. He helped build a system that had internal battles over the proper way forward and the best intermediate goals to strive for. A 30-something IT guy cannot take the system into his own hands and do what he wants with it because he thinks that it's somehow wrong for the NSA to spy on China. Or that he has the right to take secret information that he has sworn an oath to protect and give it to whomever he wants. Systems are imperfect, and they can be wrong. But individuals who go around important systems are wrong more often than not. Look at Bundy. Look at McVeigh. Look at Trump. Snowden wouldn't get much more than pity from me if he had leaked all the stuff, then called a press conference in DC, gave his spiel about how he did it to protect China from the NSA, and then waited to be arrested. I would have thought that he was a misguided idealist, perhaps. Especially given his diametrically-opposed professed views of less than a decade earlier. But he seems to be a giant narcissist who thinks that he's smarter and more virtuous than everyone in the US Government. Maybe I'll change my mind in a few years, but I wouldn't bet on it. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #411,124 by Ashton 6/15/16 6:50:12 PM 6/15/16 6:50:12 PM Reply	Belatedly.. OK a fair exposition of your (and some others') character analysis of this/"any old?" young guy, on a self-assigned MIssion. So then.. we were expecting, perhaps Epictetus, Montaigne and Kurt V. in an attractive wrapper? OTOH, from Mozart to Shelley to Dennis Brain (Fr. horn player killed in a Canadian air crash IIRC) lots of exceptionals at or near-30: distinguished selves. Dying at their only local-peak, leaving us to miserably-Miss what we imagine would have become. If. Only. We now KNOW that Murica (not alone, but still.. counter to all the propaganda of our innate-Goodness) Would/Did.. tell-any-lie/globally as locally; spread any sanctimonious self-aggrandizement as from the first ("Remember the Maine" cha. cha. cha.) or contemporaneously (The Tonkin Gulf LIE to massively intensify the Vietnam pre-Iraq Fiasco. Etc.fucking-Etc. Weighing the [+]s [-]s of this opera would need a book-shelf of tl;drs, as our grey cells weary of perpetually debating such un-Resolvables as: JUST HOW FUCKED-UP *IS* -??_ this chimerical/ largely imaginary/over-hyped 'THING' called -by at least-One- The dis-U.S.A. Hmmmm? . . . "We" bloody-Began as a Slaver State, as we commenced our perpetual hypocrisy: within the earliest documents, with phrases like All Men Are Created Equal ... cha. cha. cha. This young guy did, at least: allow any/all of us to become Truly! more current on, the State of the U.S. and its (Governmental) world-view, as well as demonstrating the degree of dissembling in Govt. rhetoric to the masses ..previously and just-Then. (Almost any Useful-factoid in this morass Would have been Classified [X] ... the Real-est problem that any 'democratic' ideals must face, in a world run just like The School for Scoundrels
Post #411,127 by Another Scott 6/15/16 11:39:15 PM 6/15/16 11:39:15 PM Reply	Thanks. We'll have to battle again when he's back in the USA. ;-)

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