Greece: It's the politics, stupid!

Post #403,010 by Another Scott 6/28/15 1:20:49 PM Reply	Greece: It's the politics, stupid! Economists View: Greece: It’s the Politics, Stupid! Gloomy European Economist Francesco Saraceno: It’s the Politics, Stupid!: I have been silent on Greece, because scores of excellent economists from all sides commented at length... But last week has transformed in certainty what had been a fear since the beginning. The troika, backed by the quasi totality of EU governments, were not interested in finding a solution that would allow Greece to recover while embarking in a fiscally sustainable path. No, they were interested in a complete and public defeat of the “radical” Greek government. ... What happened...? Well, contrary to what is heard in European circles, most of the concessions came from the Greek government. On retirement age, on the size of budget surplus (yes, the Greek government gave up its intention to stop austerity, and just obtained to soften it), on VAT, on privatizations, we are today much closer to the Troika initial positions than to the initial Greek position. Much closer. The point that the Greek government made repeatedly is that some reforms, like improving the tax collection capacity, actually demanded an increase of resources, and hence of public spending. Reforms need to be disconnected from austerity, to maximize their chance to work. Syriza, precisely like the Papandreou government in 2010 asked for time and possibly money. It got neither. Tsipras had only two red lines it would and it could not cross: Trying to increase taxes on the rich (most notably large coroporations), and not agreeing to further cuts to low pensions. if he crossed those lines, he would become virtually indistinguishable from Samaras and from the policies that led Greece to be a broken State. What the past week made clear is that this, and only this was the objective of the creditors. This has been since the beginning about politics. Creditors cannot afford that an alternative to policies followed since 2010 in Greece and in the rest of the Eurozone materializes. Austerity and structural reforms need to be the only way to go. Otherwise people could start asking questions; a risk you don’t want to run a few months before Spanish elections. Syriza needed to be made an example. You cannot survive in Europe, if you don’t embrace the Brussels-Berlin Consensus. Tsipras, like Papandreou, was left with the only option too ask for the Greek people’s opinion, because there has been no negotiation, just a huge smoke screen. Those of us who were discussing pros and cons of the different options on the table, well, we were wasting our time. And if Greece needs to go down to prove it, so be it. If we transform the euro in a club in which countries come and go, so be it. The darkest moment for the EU. Yup. Cheers, Scott
Post #403,014 by a6l6e6x 6/28/15 4:52:35 PM Reply	Nah! The Greek governmaent was elected to stiff the rest of EU. Basically, "Forgive some loans and give us more or we default!" It's not gonna happen! Parásītos is a Greek word. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #403,017 by Another Scott 6/28/15 5:46:38 PM Reply	We'll see. Greece was supposed to have a comparatively shallow recession after following the IMF/ECB plan: Didn't happen. Greece is running a primary (excluding external interest payments) surplus. The problem is the IMF/ECB continuing to demand payments on the huge debt. Greece's economy has shrank so much, and will take so long to recover (especially under the current IMF/ECB plans), that the debt will cannot be repaid in-full. The IMF/ECB has no credibility when it comes to economic forecasts under extreme austerity. The banks in Greece are closed and the Euro is crashing in Far East trading. The banksters and Merkel need to wake up and do more than say reasonable words... We'll see what happens. :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #403,019 by a6l6e6x 6/28/15 9:36:02 PM Reply	They will have a depression now. It's a self inflicted spiral down the drain. I agree that just austerity is not a solution and in the EU they can't print or devalue currency. That's the down side of the EU arrangement for all members. They'll get their drachma, inflation will take off, unemployment will spike higher, they'll quit buying other country's stuff, the pensions they didn't lower will become next to worthless, and they'll become the low cost vacation destination for Europe. But on the plus side, even the migrants from the Middle East and Africa will seek other European countries. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #403,021 by Another Scott 6/28/15 10:35:35 PM Reply	25+% unemployment for 3+ years isn't already a depression? http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/unemployment-rate Cheers, Scott.
Post #403,022 by boxley 6/28/15 10:46:54 PM Reply	is that american unemployment measure or really counting all the people out of work? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
Post #403,025 by Another Scott 6/28/15 10:58:30 PM Reply	Re: is that american unemployment measure or really counting all the people out of work? In Greece, the unemployment rate measures the number of people actively looking for a job as a percentage of the labour force. BLS: The official unemployment rate for the nation is the number of unemployed as a percentage of the labor force (the sum of the employed and unemployed). It seems pretty comparable. Greece is suffering and has been for a long time. Cheers, Scott.
Post #403,027 by a6l6e6x 6/28/15 11:34:39 PM Reply	For one thing BLS has the notion of "discouraged workers". These are folks that have given up and aren't even looking for a job. They are not counted as unemployed! That's why even when new jobs shoot up the unemployment numbers as a percentage often don't change. The discouraged workers start looking again and then are suddenly counted as unemployed. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #403,024 by a6l6e6x 6/28/15 10:58:14 PM Reply	If it's measured like in the US, then yes. That's about how bad in got in the US. Many folks that lived through that in the 1930's in the US never got over it mentally. "Brother, can you spare a dime?" But, I'm not sure the unemployment measuring in Greece is the same. The US numbers underestimate reality. Also, the Greeks could look for work elsewhere in EU. Cultural and language issues don't help, however. That's another weakness in the EU. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #403,028 by pwhysall 6/29/15 1:04:39 AM Reply	Greece was supposed to have a shallow recession They were also supposed to collect all their taxes. I doubt the IMF/ECB forecast factored for the massive tax evasion and corruption that is endemic to Greece.
Post #403,029 by static 6/29/15 2:20:15 AM Reply	The endemic tax evasion problem goes back decades. It is a large part of the reason why Greece should not have been admitted in the first place without cleaning that up. Wade Just Add Story http://justaddstory.wordpress.com/
Post #403,030 by pwhysall 6/29/15 3:23:31 AM Reply	Agreed 100%
Post #403,032 by Another Scott 6/29/15 8:12:27 AM Reply	It's hard to have a primary surplus without collecting taxes... Greece's tax structure has problems - no doubt. But it's hard to fix things like that in the middle of a depression. Demanding that they do so, without providing the means to do so, is a recipe for failure. And demanding that Greece find the way to make debt payments only one particular way (cutting pensions and not spending money to hire people to collect taxes, vs raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations) is a red line they know Greece will not cross without throwing out the government (and they just had an election). Wikipedia's summary seems to me to be fair: In the early mid-2000s, Greece's economy was one of the fastest growing in the eurozone and was associated with a large structural deficit.[29] As the world economy was hit by the financial crisis of 2007–08, Greece was hit especially hard because its main industries — shipping and tourism — were especially sensitive to changes in the business cycle. The government spent heavily to keep the economy functioning and the country's debt increased accordingly. (read the whole section) People don't go on vacation when they're worried about losing their jobs. Most of the unreasonable demands are being made by the Troika. DeLong has an interesting compare-and-contrast between now and Schumpeter's 1934 book. Oh, and the the pain is already spreading to Italy, Spain and Porugal... FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #403,040 by pwhysall 6/29/15 9:39:02 AM Reply	I don't disagree But it doesn't matter how much money you tip into Greece, or how much of the debt is forgiven, because the lack of fiscal responsibility by the Greek government (up to and including a complete failure to tackle corruption, graft and unbelievably wholesale tax evasion) means that there are two choices here: 1. Kick the can down the road. This is achieved by a new deal, more money, forgiving debt, etc. 2. Let it burn. Have no doubt - this will kill people, as hospitals find themselves unable to purchase drugs and equipment. It will be a huge shit sandwich for ordinary Greeks, probably for a decade or more. So far, the EU has resisted (2) with all its considerable might. Yes, the troika has been hard on Greece and yes, what is being asked for probably can not and will not be delivered. That certainly satisfies a defensible definition of "unreasonable". But what is the practical alternative? The Greeks have had decades to show that they can run an economy, and they have signally failed to do so. If you're going to set your retirement age low, as the Greeks have, you need to get your game face on and do some serious tax collection to make sure the pension fund is where it needs to be. They lied their way into the Euro, and now the chickens are coming home to roost.
Post #403,061 by a6l6e6x 6/29/15 1:23:45 PM Reply	Bring back Ottoman rule! :) Unless that's when the bad habits were learned. The honor guards wouldn't even have to change their uniform. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #403,160 by Andrew Grygus 7/1/15 12:44:09 PM Reply	Yes, but the Turks have much fancier outfits. Mehter - Turkish Army Band.
Post #403,161 by boxley 7/1/15 12:49:12 PM Reply	you sure? looks like a shriners convention Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
Post #403,276 by pwhysall 7/7/15 3:19:05 AM Reply	More on the structural problems facing Greece: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/27/greek-bailout-extension-refused-panel-leading-economists-give-their-verdict From a hejookated chap: The reality is that Greece has a highly uncompetitive economy and no credible tax collection system. The problems mostly are in the product, capital and housing markets that remain unaddressed. According to the World Bank’s Doing Business rankings, Greece ranks 61st, just behind Tunisia. Greece is 155th in the ability to enforce contracts, just ahead of Laos and Botswana. There has been no reform to speak of. Greece is characterised by endemic tax evasion, a poor tax collection infrastructure, parochial patronage policies, corruption and huge delays in the administrative courts dealing with tax disputes. Greece also has deep structural problems, mostly in product markets with oligopolies in almost every industry, closed professions, administrative and bureaucratic impediments to entrepreneurship alongside barriers to trade and exporting, none of which have been addressed. This baby certainly isn’t over. The worry is if the inevitable Greek default spreads. http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=29334345#p29334345 Some Chap On The Internet: Lets see now... Their election promises. 1. 300,000 new jobs in the private, public and social sectors, and a hefty increase in the minimum monthly wage - from €580 ($658; £433) to €751 ($853; £562) 2. 300,000 households under the poverty line up to 300 kWh of free electricity per month and food subsidies for the same number of families who have no income. Tax on heating fuel would be scrapped. 3. They promised to reinstate a Christmas bonus pension for pensioners receiving less than €700 ($795; £524) a month. 4. A writing off most of Greece's €322bn ($364bn; £236bn) debt, a colossal 174% of its gross domestic product (GDP). 5. When Syriza came to power it promised to halt a string of privatisations, such as the port of Piraeus and the big energy company, Public Power Corporation of Greece. 6. Property owners in Athens's leafy, northern suburbs were enticed with the promised abolition of a hated annual levy on private property. Known as "Enfia", the tax was introduced in 2011 as an emergency measure but made permanent under the previous government. 7. Repayment of the remaining debt tied to economic growth, not the Greek budget 8. A "significant moratorium" on debt payments 9. The purchase of Greek sovereign bonds under the European Central Bank's €60bn ($68bn; £45bn) monthly programme of quantitative easing 10. A European Debt Conference modelled on the write-off of half of Germany's post-World War Two debt Do you know how possible 7-10 were with 1-6? Nil. Nothing. Nought. Zilch. Fuck all. No fucking way. At all. Ever. Not happening. No fucking way. Anyone with more than one functional brain cell knew this, yet the Greek voters lapped this shit up. So you know what? YES THEY DID FUCKING BRING THIS ON THEMSELVES. If the Greeks don't like it, well they can fucking lump it for all I care. Whatever happens, it's going to be mightily shitty for the Greek on the Athens Omnibus. But that's what happens when you don't pay/collect your fucking taxes. The chickens are coming home to roost.
Post #403,292 by Another Scott 7/7/15 1:04:41 PM Reply	Yeah, if only Syria had not won the election, then the Banksters would have fixed everything... :-/
Post #403,304 by pwhysall 7/7/15 5:03:31 PM Reply	So what's your solution? Just forgive the debt, then let them get into this mess again in a decade or so, and then what?
Post #403,305 by drook 7/7/15 5:07:22 PM Reply	Excluded middle ... but you know that, right? How about forgive the debt, then make sure they don't get into this mess again? You know, like what we (allegedly) did for the banks. -- Drew
Post #403,308 by pwhysall 7/7/15 5:10:22 PM Reply	OK, how do you do that? You're just going to impose a functional economic system on them, yes? Did you miss the part where everything (and I mean everything) in their economic system is either fucked, corrupt or both?
Post #403,315 by drook 7/7/15 7:48:10 PM Reply	You broke it, you bought it If I had an easy answer I'd be applying for my Nobel already. But I know "make it substantially worse than it already is and still don't fix anything" isn't a great plan. -- Drew
Post #403,321 by Another Scott 7/8/15 2:18:33 AM Reply	This. The IMF report recommendations is a good start. Cheers, Scott.
Post #403,322 by pwhysall 7/8/15 2:55:45 AM Reply	Why not? You assume that that's the worst possible outcome. Perhaps things have to get substantially worse before the Greeks are moved to fix their problems and thus make things better.
Post #403,325 by drook 7/8/15 9:14:12 AM Reply	I don't know that 12-step programs work on social psychology "Hitting bottom" is generally talking about breaking addictions or chronic behaviors. I wouldn't assume that it applies equally to a society. An individual can be erratic but a psychological breakthrough only has to happen once. In a society different groups can have their own epiphanies, while other groups invent new pathologies on the fly. Do you really want to count on an entire country achieving enlightenment simultaneously? -- Drew
Post #403,329 by pwhysall 7/8/15 12:29:12 PM Reply	Or we could just keep right on tipping money into their economy ...which will keep them retiring at 50 on 80% of their final salaries. Yeah, let's do that.
Post #403,330 by mmoffitt 7/8/15 12:48:45 PM Reply	Oh, I see, you just make up convenient "facts." Greeks retire early. The figure of 53 years old as an average retirement age is being bandied about. So much so, that it is has become folk-fact. It originates from a lazy comment on the New York Times website. It was then repeated by Fox News and printed in other publications. Greek civil servants have the option to retire after 17.5 years of service, but this is on half benefits. The figure of 53 is a misinformed conflation of the number of people who choose to do this (in most cases to go on to different careers) and those who stay in public service until their full entitlement becomes available. Looking at Eurostat’s data from 2005 the average age of exit from the labour force in Greece (indicated in the graph below as EL for Ellas) was 61.7; higher than Germany, France or Italy and higher than the EU27 average. Since then Greece have had to raise the minimum age of retirement twice under bail-out conditions and so this figure is likely to rise further. http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/world-affairs/2012/05/exploding-myth-feckless-lazy-greeks
Post #403,331 by pwhysall 7/8/15 1:01:47 PM Reply	Whev Go you! You found an error that makes Greece kindasorta not look like a complete economic basket case! Technically correct, the best kind of correct! They're working SO hard and being SO honest and they're SO well-disciplined that this is all someone else's fault. Fuck that. Greece is in a bed of its own making - a debt built on endemic corruption, tax evasion, cronyism and all the other shit that goes along with it. As a nation, if you dodge €30B/year of taxes but spend the money anyway, you're gonna end up fucked. But yeah, it's obviously not Greece's fault and the EZ countries should just keep right on paying.
Post #403,342 by mmoffitt 7/8/15 4:22:58 PM Reply	Re: EZ countries should just keep right on paying. I'm not suggesting that. I'm only suggesting that the bankster controlled governments admit their part in making a bad situation (entirely the fault of the Greeks) immeasurably worse and the current "we must continue the punishment, it's the only way to save them" policy is horribly flawed.
Post #403,327 by mmoffitt 7/8/15 9:22:18 AM Reply	Right. It's a relatively new country after all. If they're going to survive for, say, as long as England has and ever contribute anything to the world, they'll figure these things out. But today they're so young. Left to their own devices they'd obviously disappear in a decade.
Post #403,023 by Another Scott 6/28/15 10:50:18 PM Reply	Krugman: The Reverse Corleone Krugman's blog: I would vote no [on the July 5 referendum], for two reasons. First, much as the prospect of euro exit frightens everyone — me included — the troika is now effectively demanding that the policy regime of the past five years be continued indefinitely. Where is the hope in that? Maybe, just maybe, the willingness to leave will inspire a rethink, although probably not. But even so, devaluation couldn’t create that much more chaos than already exists, and would pave the way for eventual recovery, just as it has in many other times and places. Greece is not that different. Second, the political implications of a yes vote would be deeply troubling. The troika clearly did a reverse Corleone — they made Tsipras an offer he can’t accept, and presumably did this knowingly. So the ultimatum was, in effect, a move to replace the Greek government. And even if you don’t like Syriza, that has to be disturbing for anyone who believes in European ideals. Yup. Cheers, Scott.
Post #403,026 by a6l6e6x 6/28/15 11:09:06 PM Reply	Re: "they made Tsipras an offer he can’t accept" The offer never changed. It's simply that you cannot have a free ride. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #403,035 by crazy 6/29/15 8:55:23 AM Reply	Sure you can. At least for a while. The bottom line is the offer was to give them just enough money to service the debt while increasing the debt. Before that point any "loans" went into the Greek people's pocket in some manner. It made sense for them to accept the cash, thinking they would wiggle out of repaying it. But now, why accept another dime, it just is being returned to the "creditors"? Greater fool theory runs out sooner or later, and it just happened here.
Post #403,046 by boxley 6/29/15 11:06:26 AM Reply	:-) Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
Post #403,036 by mmoffitt 6/29/15 8:55:33 AM Reply	Yeah. Who do they think they are? Wall Street Bankers?
Post #403,158 by crazy 7/1/15 9:48:40 AM Reply	Greece blinked But it may be too late. http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/01/news/economy/greece-bailout-concessions/index.html
Post #403,159 by Another Scott 7/1/15 11:09:18 AM Reply	It's really hard to know who's giving the straight story on this stuff. Reuters: Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has told international creditors Athens could accept their bailout offer if some conditions were changed, but Germany said it could not negotiate while Greece was headed for a referendum on the aid-for-reforms deal. In exchange for the conditional acceptance, the leftist leader, who has so far urged Greeks to reject the bailout terms in a referendum planned for Sunday, asked for a 29 billion euro loan to cover all its debt service payments due in the next two years. With queues forming at many cash machines a day after Greece became the first advanced economy to default on the IMF, and signs that supplies of bank notes were running low, Tsipras has been under growing political pressure to reach a deal. Global financial markets reacted remarkably calmly to the widely anticipated Greek default, strengthening the hand of hardline euro zone partners who say Athens cannot use the threat of contagion to weaker European sovereigns as a bargaining chip. Tsipras asked in a letter to creditors seen by Reuters to keep a discount on value added tax for Greek islands, stretch out defense spending cuts and delay the phasing out of an income supplement to poorer pensioners. [...] Tsipras is saying "sure we can have a deal if you just change these few little things, and give us a new deal so that we can get through the next few months of payments" (after all, the June 30 payment was tiny compared to what's due in the next few months). He's been saying we can do a lot, but there are some red lines I can't cross (like more pension cuts), for months. The Troika is saying, as always, "do what we say or no deal". At least that's the way I read it. We'll see what happens. Cheers, Scott.
Post #403,181 by a6l6e6x 7/1/15 6:09:08 PM Reply	They are literally playing games. BBC: Can game theory explain the Greek debt crisis?. The Greek finance minister is an expert in game theory. Could this help predict how the Eurozone negotiations will turn out, asks Marcus Miller, professor of economics at the University of Warwick. Game theory is what its name implies. It's the use of games to study behaviour and decision-making. Well, you can improve your odds, but you can still lose! Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #403,272 by crazy 7/6/15 7:17:32 PM Reply	Good article on monetary policy and why the euro was doomed from the start http://www.vox.com/2015/6/29/8859741/greek-financial-crisis-euro
Post #403,328 by mmoffitt 7/8/15 10:01:39 AM Reply	Piketty (and others) open letter to Frau Merkel. The never-ending austerity that Europe is force-feeding the Greek people is simply not working. Now Greece has loudly said no more. As most of the world knew it would, the financial demands made by Europe have crushed the Greek economy, led to mass unemployment, a collapse of the banking system, made the external debt crisis far worse, with the debt problem escalating to an unpayable 175 percent of GDP. The economy now lies broken with tax receipts nose-diving, output and employment depressed, and businesses starved of capital. The humanitarian impact has been colossal—40 percent of children now live in poverty, infant mortality is sky-rocketing and youth unemployment is close to 50 percent. Corruption, tax evasion and bad accounting by previous Greek governments helped create the debt problem. The Greeks have complied with much of German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s call for austerity—cut salaries, cut government spending, slashed pensions, privatized and deregulated, and raised taxes. But in recent years the series of so-called adjustment programs inflicted on the likes of Greece has served only to make a Great Depression the likes of which have been unseen in Europe since 1929-1933. The medicine prescribed by the German Finance Ministry and Brussels has bled the patient, not cured the disease. Together we urge Chancellor Merkel and the Troika to consider a course correction, to avoid further disaster and enable Greece to remain in the eurozone. Right now, the Greek government is being asked to put a gun to its head and pull the trigger. Sadly, the bullet will not only kill off Greece’s future in Europe. The collateral damage will kill the Eurozone as a beacon of hope, democracy and prosperity, and could lead to far-reaching economic consequences across the world. In the 1950s, Europe was founded on the forgiveness of past debts, notably Germany’s, which generated a massive contribution to post-war economic growth and peace. Today we need to restructure and reduce Greek debt, give the economy breathing room to recover, and allow Greece to pay off a reduced burden of debt over a long period of time. Now is the time for a humane rethink of the punitive and failed program of austerity of recent years and to agree to a major reduction of Greece’s debts in conjunction with much needed reforms in Greece. To Chancellor Merkel our message is clear; we urge you to take this vital action of leadership for Greece and Germany, and also for the world. History will remember you for your actions this week. We expect and count on you to provide the bold and generous steps towards Greece that will serve Europe for generations to come. Sincerely, Heiner Flassbeck, former State Secretary in the German Federal Ministry of Finance Thomas Piketty, Professor of Economics at the Paris School of Economics Jeffrey D. Sachs, Professor of Sustainable Development, Professor of Health Policy and Management, and Director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University Dani Rodrik, Ford Foundation Professor of International Political Economy, Harvard Kennedy School Simon Wren-Lewis, Professor of Economic Policy, Blavatnik School of Government, University of Oxford http://www.thenation.com/article/austerity-has-failed-an-open-letter-from-thomas-piketty-to-angela-merkel/
Post #403,372 by Ashton 7/10/15 4:20:19 PM Reply	Puritanical visions of comeuppances (visited on anonymous Others) ..not just the Murican schadenfreude It seems to animate the species in n-random moods: that tic which defines melancholia. You'd think that the Smarter ones would correct for such an obvious/widespread species defect, by now. You would be wrong. Word for the 21st Century, if we extrapolate the first ~1/7th of it: incorrigible. ..with all the fatal implications [Schadenfreude On] At least those family-$$$-dynasties will go out, each perp transmogrified into Marley's ghost, with the gold bars chained to the symbolic bones of the post-mortem wretch. [S Off]

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