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New For TopMind
Since TM seems to like these kinds of arguments, thought I'd pass along a critique of [link|http://cobolreport.com/columnists/martin/04292002.asp|OOP] from the Cobol programmers perspective. The article is not, strictly speaking, anti-OOP, but I'm sure you can enjoy the rhetoric.
New 3 pages worth of arguments, loads of crap about Simula, ...
... not a single mention of Smalltalk. It's like saying that procedural programming is bad after looking at Fortran IV.
New the author falls into his own trap.
From the article:
Thus, some people will say that OO is an aspect of GUIs. In this context, some will say that the things that appear on a screen are the "objects" of OO. Others identify OO programming with those GUI environments created for "object module" programming. Others see "objects" as the things that are dragged and dropped into an application, form, or other window in a GUI.
Then, a few lines down:
There is no denying that the world of GUIs and OO languages is a wondrous construct that owes its existence to OO theory.
"The world of GUIs ... owes its existence to OO theory" ?!?

And here I thought he talked about what "some people will say" as examples of what OO *isn't* really all about!

Kind'a lost interest then and there... Oh, I'll probably print it out and read it later -- but don't expect me to expend too much mental energy commenting on the piece after that inauspicious a start.
   Christian R. Conrad
Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower.
-- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764|Andrew Grygus]
New Biggest failing...
...is that the author confuses OOP with MVC. When he speaks of GUIs and Forms, what he is really talking about is MVC - which is made much easier by OOP, but is a whole concept onto itself about seperating concerns.
New No, the biggest one is actually the one Bryce caught.
That is, his obsessions with (a) OO's roots in Simula, and (b) all that "Business Object" bumf.

Sorry, but I'm not a PHB, I'm a programmer; so why the fuck *shouldn't* I have Socket and Window and File objects?!? Those are the tools I need to do my job -- now get your grubby hands off of them, mr Pagnan!

My job isn't to manage a business, it's to write programs FOR the people who manage the business -- what the fuck is there to say the contents of MY toolbox must somehow "conform" to THEIR "business reality"? Nothing, pure bullshit. They should conform to MY reality, which *does* have sockets and windows and files in it.

Furthermore, as Bryce also points out, the programs I write are supposed to actually *do* the work, not "simulate" it... With mr Pagnan's reasoning, there probably shouldn't be any Saw or Lathe objects in a furniture-factory-managing program (and perhaps no actual saws or lathes in the factory, either???) -- because those have nothing to do with the intrinsic chairness of a chair, or tableness of a table... Fucking eejit.
   Christian R. Conrad
Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower.
-- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764|Andrew Grygus]
New re: OO and GUI's
There is no denying that the world of GUIs and OO languages is a wondrous construct that owes its existence to OO theory.

"The world of GUIs ... owes its existence to OO theory" ?!?

And here I thought he talked about what "some people will say" as examples of what OO *isn't* really all about!

I don't think he is saying that GUI's and OO are the same, but that OO allowed/allows GUI's to shine. I'm sure yourself would agree that "OO makes GUI's easier and cleaner". And/or perhaps he is suggesting that GUI's helped make OOP "mainstream", which I also agree with. Whether such "marketing" reflects reality or not is not the issue.

What exactly are you complaining about?

(Of course, I disagree that OO makes GUI's better. I would rather see tablized-GUI's. Besides, in good IDE's one does not even see much OOPL GUI-related code. You type code into snippet windows and fill in property grids. These are not OO inventions. Most programmers don't care whether the snippet box writes code into classes or functions or methods or case statements or whatever. It is just a "chunk of code" to them. It couldn't be all about dot-syntax, could it?)

________________
oop.ismad.com
New my comments
There are some things I agree with, and some I don't. First, here are some I agree with:

"OO proponents are not making sense to business. Their programming structures are viewed as an arbitrary kludge [because they are not sticking to OO's roots]."

"In fact, it has been suggested that OO has contributed to IT shops becoming money pits that cannot guarantee results and that confound and complicate the simplest of requirements beyond practical consideration."

This reflects my viewpoint that "OO is popular because it makes consultants rich."

"There is also a view that OO will soon disappear simply through disuse. OO never achieved a dominant position. Most existing code remains non-OO and as time passes, more code is written using script, macro, markup, batch and traditional languages. Even where OO languages are used, they are often used only to create single class modules, which could just as well have been written using traditional languages without the OO overhead."

I am not alone. I might even be part of the "silent majority". (Well, you might question the "silent" part :-)

"I found the programmers quick to understand how OO programming can be used to write tighter and more maintainable code. However, that did not make them use it."

I question this. Is he comparing OO to traditional flat-file COBOL? Is he using polymorphism examples against tree taxonomies? I would love to see his training examples.

Another area I disagree with is his suggestion that business processes should be modeled as real-world interactions. Viewing business applications as "simulations" is problematic. Simulations are to reflect interactions of the "real world" in order to study the real world and improve its flow. Business applications are to achieve something by the best means possible using computers. These two goals are not necessarily the same, nor necessarily result in the same solution. A common example given of this disconnect is that if flight was modeled via real-world simulations of our actual experiences, then airplanes would have wings that flap. Mirroring the real world and getting something done as efficiently as possible are different animals. Sometimes they overlap, but often they don't. The strength and weaknesses of computers are different than those of humans. Thus, to achieve the same task as simple and flexible as possible via computer requires different approaches than achieving it as a human.

I don't really question OO's value in modeling interactions and behaviors of the real world. However, the best techniques for modeling the real world and for making better software are probably not the same. In the real world you must model boats, captains, docks, and paperwork. However, you probably don't need most of these concepts internally in business software (unless your intention is to make a mess).

________________
oop.ismad.com
     For TopMind - (ChrisR) - (6)
         3 pages worth of arguments, loads of crap about Simula, ... - (Arkadiy) - (4)
             the author falls into his own trap. - (CRConrad) - (3)
                 Biggest failing... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                     No, the biggest one is actually the one Bryce caught. - (CRConrad)
                 re: OO and GUI's - (tablizer)
         my comments - (tablizer)

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