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New the moderate muslim
http://dailycaller.com/2015/01/08/egypts-al-sisi-wants-an-islamic-revolution-the-good-kind/
“Is it possible that 1.6 billion [Muslims] should want to kill the rest of the world’s inhabitants – that is 7 billion—so that they themselves may live? Impossible! … I say and repeat again that we are in need of a religious revolution. You, imams, are responsible before Allah. The entire world, I say it again, the entire world is waiting for your next move… because this umma is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost – and it is being lost by our own hands.”
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New Succinct and.. simply Astounding! ..while so Very-long overdue.
Thanks, Box for such an al punte example of your (apparently regular) visiting of fertile ground/looking in The Right Places and finding such utter gems. (I shall henceforth try to stifle snarking (much..) about some of your more er, tendentious.. too-short unearthings of Iron Pyrites [fools' gold.])
But this *one is a Platinum Vacheron et Constantine minute-repeater (for those into time-keeping metaphor.)
* Irony? or misunderestimation by most, of just Who Be? this Al-Sisi. If this brief speech isn't wisdom, then I've got that word wrong.

Post-Paris: I'd thought about what might Be? The Planet's response to this latest assassination atrocity, along with some millions of others pondering the exact same thing. Given that THIS attack was plainly: upon the very basis of anything remotely-called Our Civilization-itself, it Can serve as the impetus for something-like: creation of a World Religious Court.
[poor Geneva! always stuck with the messiest Questions as bedevil our oft-bat-shit-iggerant species. YPB.]

That is, WHEN an entire Religion, representing millions/billions: is seen to foster? (via misinterpretation of much and also by very specific koans they Do Not Yet Deny openly in their daily 'prayers' and preaching) THEN: the rest of the many-more billions must act in mere self-Defense against such a War-against the very root of 'civilization' Itself.

It would very well evoke the enigma: Limiting of certain Speech, in the exact aim of preserving Free Speech! in most other matters. Yes, an *exception* to (our) First Amendment! among very many worldwide equivalents. Dunno if there are enough Adults amidst the political-dross to be found everywhere, even to contemplate such a contrivance (that Court.) But if ALL-fail to FIND a way through the enigma, by this or some other Way-with-Teeth?

What will a Planet-wide War via '15 techno-mean-ness look like?



Yeah: they'd need to be able to comprehend even this little koan ... and ya can't Legislate Love, given its complete absence in every Jihadist/ever:
Law above fear, justice above law, mercy above justice, love above all.

That's just tl;dr for a 18 yo dirt-poor Boom-vest-clad loony, ever to grasp.
New Re: exceptions to the first amendment
Google "incitement". There's precedent, and it fits pretty well, even.
--

Drew
New Delayed incitement isn't.
One of the things that surprised me when I first read/heard about it is that incitement laws in the US only apply to immediate and likely threats of violence.

"Someday, the people will rise up with pitchforks and torches and burn down Frankenstein's castle!!" is Ok. It's not incitement - in the US anyway.

"My brothers and sisters, tonight, after this meeting, we will take our pitchforks and torches and ..." is not Ok. That's illegal incitement.

Too many people get people riled up by advocating violence of the first kind, with a wink and a nod, but there's (apparently) little that the US can do to punish them.

Yes, there can be chilling effects, and there can be corner cases where unsavory politicians and prosecutors can stifle speech they don't like. But when people, especially under the guise of religion, can advocate violence and people take them up on it, something more needs to be done...

Cheers,
Scott.
New Pointing to Egypt's al-Sisi as a good guy is a stretch...
http://www.juancole.com/2014/12/thermidor-counter-revolution.html

Despite al-Sisi’s clampdown, for many Egyptians he remains a popular leader, offering protection and stability where previously there had been only insecurity and chaos. And while security problems across Egypt remain serious – highlighted by a general reluctance among women to leave the house on their own – al-Sisi’s regime is still broadly seen as a solution to the country’s big problems, not a problem in itself.

The price of security

But that doesn’t mean all is well. Since gaining power after the July 2013 coup d’etat, al-Sisi has sought to consolidate his rule by whatever means necessary – and the means he has chosen are starting to deepen domestic and international unease.

The government has dialled up its authoritarianism and passed various new laws that restrict Egyptians’ human rights. The new constitution, devoted to a “war against terrorism”, defines terrorism as an “act” that might obstruct the work of public officials, embassies or institutions and therefore includes anyone who joins peaceful protests or takes part in a strike. Prison sentences of up to ten years can be given to anyone who is part of a group that “harms national unity or social peace”.

As a consequence, an estimated 41,163 Egyptians were arrested in the period between July 3, 2013 and May 15, 2014, including 36,478 detained during political events and a further 3,048 arrested as members of the Muslim Brotherhood.
These numbers are unmatched in Egyptian history, and they show just how restricted and security-minded Egypt’s politics have become.

Together with the re-issuing of Mubarak’s much criticised State of Emergency Law and of the Assembly Law, which gives the security forces the right to forcibly disperse any public meeting of more than ten people, this is another clear sign of a regime trying to retain power by utterly dominating the political sphere.


Of course, the Daily Caller is Tucker Carlson's rag, and the authors are part of the Simon Wiesenthal Center - which opposed the construction of the Ground Zero Mosque (which wasn't at Ground Zero and wasn't a Mosque). Many Zionists like al-Sisi because democracy is messy, and Israel's government wants stability on its borders above almost anything... :-/

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New So if Nixon told Billy Graham to tone down anti gay rhetoric, it would be a bad thing?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New So, if Nixon locked up all the Democratic leaders and told them to be nice...
New So if Clinton locked up all the repos leaders and told them to be nice
would he have still been impeached? Did you have a point because your simile didnt work.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New al-Sisi locked up his opponents then told them to play nice. HTH.
New ah so Sisi is a bad guy, people who like jews published his statement on Islam
so what he said is to be utterly disregarded because it was Sisi who said it. Somehow that doesn't sound right.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New No. That's not my view.
In brief:

1) I don't think the DailyCaller is a site worth reading.

2) I don't think that organizations that are strong public advocates for Zionist policies, who have (specifically) helped demonize Muslims in the US, have anything useful to say about the way Muslims should think and behave.

3) I don't think that al-Sisi's statements about the way Muslim people should behave should be taken at face value. I'm sure Genghis Khan was nice to his dogs, and liked beautiful music, too... :-/

There are much better examples of Muslims condemning "Islamic" terrorism than al-Sisi's statements.

FWIW. YMMV. ;-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New I will address 3, 1&2 are not part of Islam
3) I don't think that al-Sisi's statements about the way Muslim people should behave should be taken at face value. I'm sure Genghis Khan was nice to his dogs, and liked beautiful music, too... :-/

He is their defacto leader regardless of how he got there until he is replaced. The country he leads is regarded by a wide swath of Sunni Islam to be the heart of the religion as well as one of the more populated. His funding funds the Islamic learning institutions. His statements are regarded in that particular area are as forceful to the Sunni as the Qatar Leadership is to the takfari branch of the Sunni. He is speaking as a leader of his stewardship. Hopefully his words are heeded. He is a practicing Muslim regardless of his political duties. As one of the leaders of the Pan Arab states his words are respected although his politics may not be. The statement is one that needs leaders in the area to get behind with eminent common sense.

Churchill was the leader who ordered wmd's to be used in Iraq, gassing the Iraqi folk. Not a nice man but he was sorta useful in 1940's as well as Stalin another fine upstanding example of "was nice to his dogs, and liked beautiful music, too... :-/"
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New That's fine as far as it goes.
Egypt has been ruled by thinly veiled generals since Nasser's day. Except when the Brotherhood was briefly in charge. IIRC, one of the reasons why things fell apart when the Brotherhood ruled is that the Army was working behind the scenes to strangle the economy.

Pointing to al-Sisi as an important player is certainly true. However, it's important to remember all the baggage he brings with him. It's easy for a general to point at religious leaders and say "look - you have to fix this problem" when a lot of Egypt's (and Arab Muslims') problems are the direct result of the history of military rule there.

The Brotherhood didn't appear out of nowhere. They were (at least in part) a reaction to military rule in Egypt. The Brotherhood was the incubator of al Qaeda and lots of other nasty groups.

Isn't it a bit disconcerting to you that the first few dozen hits in a Google search for "al sisi muslim leaders peace" (without the quotes) is mainly links to RWNJ sites like DailyCaller and PJMedia??

"A Titan for Freedom!!"

"Does al-Sisi Deserve the Nobel Peace Prize??"

Why not pick a story from al Arabiya instead?

Gotta run.

Cheers,
Scott.
New well since I invoked Godwin my last post :-) besides Obama has a nobel why not sisi?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New How do you "invoke" Godwin's Law?
Answer: you don't.

It's an observation, nothing more.

/pedant
New "Pedant" is just a nice word grammar Nazis use to describe themselves
--

Drew
New I see what you did there...
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New Think you're missing the salient point.
Not important that he is another in a long series of questionable accessions in a State with a political process quite as inimical to basic principles of "democratic rule" as our own, or even how poorly he handles the Power. He is a credentialed Muslim. No Infidel could suggest that Imams, their madrassas cease teaching that Jihad is acceptable behavior on this planet. It may well be that no one can cause these to cease their incitements to the young, especially the paupers with no prospects: except tp escape from here to the fantasy-world.

The Very Idea! that: anyone alive--Not a Muslim--is an Infidel who may be assassinated (and earn praise for the act!) means that Islam is Exceptional to the rules of civilized other societies: who also outnumber and out-gun them. (No wonder the West's fears of Iran + Bomb, though we dare not say: because you will Use it). I remain mystified as to Why every literate Muslim cannot see the implications of being labeled an Infidel who may be killed and his murderer rewarded. This is not absence of empathy; it's absence of a functioning mind or conscience or both.

Finally one of Theirs has here tried to tell them the obvious; Muslims merely need to look at the collateral damage of all our wars to determine what we are capable of, and all know that we have the nukes to proceed. Ergo, personally, I don't care if al-Sisi is as rapacious as the Koch brothers, the entire US Financial tribe or all those now-wealthy U.S. 'Representatives': he has here attempted to educate the people who have created a welcoming environment for assassins. Barbarian is the universal epithet for that mind-set.

I see no way out of a permanently intransigent Islam, except what always we do. (And then we shall join them in perpitude: for a toss-up whether weather does us in before? we start with nukes and the Pakistan-supplied retaliations.) I'm convinced: that the species IS that crazy, especially when one side has all the destructive power just sitting around, waiting to justify the n $Ts it cost over the last 70 years. One more mini-Towers episode or less--is all the primer it needs.

Don't you Get that? [But will a %significant of Imams + followers Get that?]


May the combination of fallout from this atrocity AND al-Sisi's comments prove synergistic [if any key Imam even heard of it..]

Carrion, Homo-Seppuku.
New Maybe.
On the other hand, ...

Our understanding of such relations between civilizations stems from the basic principles of Islam, that considers belief in former Divine Messages as a prerequisite for sound faith in Islam.... The Holy Qur'an also confirms that religion can never serve as grounds for clash by saying, ``There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error.'' This also shows that relationships among civilizations and nations are one of dialogue rather than one of conflict, as shown by the following verses, ``O mankind Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another.'' And, ``Argue ye not [with the People of the Scripture] except in the better ways.'' Thus, from a proper Islamic perspective, Muslims' belief in the universality of Islam does not imply the exclusive singularity of Islamic civilization in the world nor its supremacy over other civilizations. It rather means interaction with these civilizations and emphasis that plurality of civilizations and diversity of cultures are the normal state of affairs.

This Islamic concept of universality is based on the fact that plurality, diversity, and variance are the rule and the law and that interaction with other civilizations is the proper median position between isolation and subordination. The experience of history confirms this vision that we much cherish, in identifying relations between civilizations. The Arab Islamic civilization rose not to supersede, but rather to complement and advance oriental heritage.
- President Hosni Mubarak, President of Egypt, November 2, 2001 - Madrid, Spain - http://www.schillerinstitute.org/dialogue_cultures/mubarak_11_01.html

Platitudes from Egyptian dictators are easy. I don't see much benefit in joining people on the outside that I disagree with on most issues (i.e. the RWNJs) in applauding their wisdom and foresight and .... Al-Sisi and the DailyCaller aren't my compatriots.

But, maybe I am missing the point. Oh well.

FWIW. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New No, I share that POV (also too..)
Wise words from both.. but we see that 13+ years later: there's ISIS and a new crop of despairing youn'uns whose ripeness for a fantasy escape transcends even their will to live. Hosni got ejected.. to be replaced with ... ...

It may be that, even if al-Sisi's more contemporary Wake-Up shall fall on premeditatedly deaf-ears too. No surprise there. But the focus on TEACHING is a lot more specific than the POV of Mubarak, and even there, al-S. doesnt Say This this simply, either.

What I see is that the MMO is There: awaitng only the last "Opportunity" to self-justify something like a pogrom, especially if (everyone's! Inner-nazi becomes stoked by escalating ISIS atrocities plus further success, compounded by planetary and Econ clusterfucks throughout the Rich slabs of land.

If Islam hews to Shrub-grade Stubbornness (about its emphases on the (inner-Nazi passages in that Quran) for the foreseeable? I have no doubt that there is enough corruption to go around and our own Western 'Swansee' secret confab for the demonstration of superior Power ... remains quite within that deck of failed-thus-far diplomatic cards.

(The whole techno-revolution is about speeding-up all Normal processes, as if for 'convenience' and higher profits) via Corporations eating the profits of that ever-rising efficiency curve: The casualty is, IMO the loss of patience on all fronts: for those s l o w processes of (civilizing even 'our Own'. I see a huge crap-shoot in the offing.

Hope I'm Rilly-wrong! about that Solution as opens up a new Tier in The Inferno, never envisaged by Dante :-/

We Begin--at Best--by greatly reducing Our nukes as the final carrot re. Iran.. also de-FUZING of India's/Paki's hysterical hair triggers: all at Once. If any Statesmen still exist anywhere. You can't force-ration these planet-killers for everyone-but-Yourself. That's Basic Reptile-brain Fact, I wot.

:-) :-/ == crap. shoot. Danger + Opportunity etc.



Ed: oTyp
Expand Edited by Ashton Jan. 9, 2015, 06:27:15 PM EST
New He doesn't get a free pass just because he said something utterly-Sane, once
but all things considered: he cannot hence be called an Ignorant self-serving Despot: just an ordinary scheming-one
(nor get off light in some future trial by a plea, "I didn't realize that ... X was Wrong!")
It's the old Hottentot and (the whatever-'civilized' stand-in) gig.

As to ISIS and Paris defectives: laws mean nothing to someone who has daily folksy conversations with their One-True $Deity about the Goodness of sociopathy.
So what do we do with those, on an already crowded space-ship?

(Think religiocide and you Join Them.)
New Along the lines of, "Hitch was right all along".
I give you this to consider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYAcLudBbhg
New OK.. gantlet sorta run.. ... weird species, overall.
Conclusion first: clearly the Activist-Islamites fail the Psychopath Test; should not this fact--evident by inspection--supersede the drudgery of epistemological parsing and all that repetitive neuronal drudgery?
Each of such confrontations seems to underscore the meta-view: Communication has failed, does so repeatedly ... each's cranium becomes its own opaque fish-bowl, a soundproof one. I'm about through kibitzing on such Missions Impossible. (Though each time there is the nearly-suffocated Hope that ... some PAIR shall go beyond the word-salads!.. gotta Resist.. that.)

[Just heard: the French killed-off the GF of the three or so runamucks; further confirmation of futility?]

A sub-set of (the conventional 'a-personification-of-a-creature-like-us' "God") == the Muslim debate.
The good-ethical-philosophical Muslim here countering Hitchin is prolix but succeeds-not IMO to make the unstated-case that, all the atrocities snarkily but accurately disemboweled by Hitchens: "kinda Aren't our best minds-at-work" (because Really..we ARE.. a religion of peace™) So.. worship His Face and kill those who don't?

(We all are so inundated with cant, that most can't get Kant, even) or at very least, order our minds decently with the priorities that must underlie Reason (so sweet and undefinable.)
I guess I think that there's no (real) contest here re. whether the mondo-Authoritarian kultur derived from the Quran is remotely sane: that man-transcribed tome which 'regulates' every facet of your life, from diet to sex to clothing to … thus an easy-win even with a lesser wordsmith than Hitchins. Authority for Authority's sake?

I submit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg7p1BjP2dA
Sam Harris -vs- William Lane Craig
He's more concise than Hitchins, (a higher-level of snark, too?), and vastly more lucid than Tariq Ramadan (kindly and almost-erudite as he is..)

Samples:
"Worst possible Universe": maximum of pain== creature suffers as much as it can for as long as it can: defines BAD (GOOD==obv. opposite) Nice touch,
epistemology somewhat laterally-arabesqued.. by a more practical nearer-pellucid model for creation of an 'Objective' morality, if morality is to be at-all comprehended in a useful (to human-apes) way. "Well-being of *conscious* creatures" becomes the guiding principle amidst all scales of word-salad, sweet or vinaigrette.
Ex.
Taliban: one of the best places on Earth to watch women and infants die.. [avec ugly Stats]
Throwing battery acid in faces of little girls trying to learn how to read… (fill in n- more)
(He seems to grok Cantor's non-denumerable infinities--some larger than others, in verbal terms, maybe the essence of his brevity with clarity ?) Ex: "It's really possible to 'value' things that would make you deeply miserable in this life."

Craig loses/flat-FAIL in violating the Prime Directive: [The Absolute is without attributes] via his anthropocentric description of God's "character" (..as the inventor of values and morality and well.. just.. whatcha got?) Ex: "moral ontology confused with moral semantics" (?)
Moi says, moral grounded in God==YAN 'ontological proof-of-God' dirt-snake circle-jerk..

IMO Harris cleans his clock with some stats, the sources for believing in 'Hell' (and all Authoritarian 'Morality') by noting absurdities which need no reductio. More Ex: "This is how you play tennis without the net!" … It is not only tiresome when intelligent people speak this way: it is morally reprehensible … the perfection of Narcissism: when God Loves Me... A religion of human sacrifice." (and many Etc.)

Love. It. Not merely a hoot, but a concise rebuttal for every sanctimonious [God-loves-*you* piece of "the Good News" fabric of every evangel since the mythical Satan-dummy.]

Except: this total-Non-communication just goes on.. and on.. like a brick wall. Few ever examine a moment (which one stays-in, excluding all else) for a quick assessment of one's raison d'etre--within the daily Play.) Just as every Sage has stated, some more cleverly than others. :-/


Verily I say unto thee (if ya wanna use Words at all?)
FIRST came The [Referent] … thence came the words--all loosed into the maya aka World of Opposites aka the daily dream-state (for our consternation and amusement.)
Awomen
New Friday's Invisibilia - The Locked-in Man
A South African child came down with an illness, cryptococcal meningitis, and all of his voluntary muscle control eventually shut down.

NPR:

[...]

MILLER: The doctors told Joan and Rodney that Martin was beyond hope.

RODNEY PISTORIUS: As good as not, they - you know, he's a vegetable. He has zero intelligence.

MILLER: They were told to take him home.

RODNEY PISTORIUS: Try and keep him comfortable until he died.

MILLER: But one year passed, and two years passed.

JOAN PISTORIUS: Martin just kept going, just kept going.

MILLER: So Joan, Rodney and their two kids did their best to care for Martin's body.

RODNEY PISTORIUS: I'd get up at 5 o'clock in the morning, get him dressed, load him in the car, take him to the Special Care Center where I'd leave him. Eight hours later, I'd pick him up, bathe him, feed him, put him in bed, set my alarm for two hours so that I'd wake up to turn him so that he didn't get bedsores.

MILLER: All throughout the night?

RODNEY PISTORIUS: Yeah. Every two hours, I'd get up and turn him over and then get a little bit of sleep. And at 5 o'clock the next morning, I'd start the same cycle.

MILLER: That was their lives.

[...]

MILLER: Nine [years]. Ten.

JOAN PISTORIUS: This was so horrific.

MILLER: Joan remembers vividly going up to him one time and saying...

JOAN POSTORIUS: I hope you die. I know that's a horrible thing to say. I just wanted some sort of relief.

MILLER: Eleven years, 12.

[...]

MILLER: Now, I will get to how he regained consciousness and developed the ability to operate a keyboard and the wheelchair that he uses to get around. But what you need to know is that for about eight years, while all the world thought that Martin was gone, he was wide awake.

MARTIN PISTORIUS: I was aware of everything, just like any normal person.

MILLER: He thinks he woke up about four years after he first fell ill, so when he was about 16 years old.

MARTIN PISTORIUS: I suppose a good way to describe it is like an out-of-focus image. At first you have no idea what it is, but slowly it comes into focus until you can see it in crystal clarity.

MILLER: And somewhere in this reawakening to the world, Martin realized, to his horror, that he couldn't move his body. He couldn't even speak.

MARTIN PISTORIUS: I stared at my arm, willing it to move. Every bit of me condenses into this moment.

MILLER: Martin would later write a book about this called "Ghost Boy: My Escape From A Life Locked Inside My Own Body." And this is him reading a passage about one night when he tried as hard as he could to get his father's attention.

[...]


(Emphasis added.)

Fascinating stuff.

I remember as a kid wondering (probably based on some popular novel title or something) what it would be like to be in a state like that.


I agree that there must be a strong element of psychopathy in too many of these murderers who use religion as an excuse. All of us have models of our universe inside our heads. They're all a little different, but none of them are perfect matches to "real reality". People who can convince themselves that political cartoons are an acceptable reason for machine-gunning their fellow species-mates are broken and need to be helped to rejoin something approaching reality.

I wouldn't be surprised if, within 20 years or so, there are reasonably good treatments for psychoses like these. The question is, who is going to decide what is "normal"...?

Cheers,
Scott.
New I think that many have had that Wondering..
perhaps when pondering what the worst? worst-enough Hell might be like.
Then there's Helen Keller, surely one of the most (H)eroic persons ever, due, indispensably to her dedicated and intelligent companion.

Maybe a pill shall happen which reverses psychopathy some. day. Meanwhile, this tiny band of utter-Incorrigibles may well ignite a religio-/politico-/worldwide Spasm-war (the original RAND-kind? or a facsimile.)
When the very concept of shame has been deadened ... the subconscious random thoughts within every ~normal homo-sap exhibits quite well to us just how dangerous even One Conscience-free aka Hitler can be.

No need for The Sky Has Fallen.. have we not always lived in parlous Times?
(As Command and Control documented to a fare-thee-well): only Luck is responsible for the remarkable Fact: that no nuke has yet been triggered accidentally, within those very many close-calls.

We shall have to hope that at least this level of dumb-Luck sustains the planetary House of Cards well beyond any Hope of the rational-odds sort, eh?
New Religion precludes treatment.
My very good friend in NC set up their local RR (Recovering From Religion) group. Very low attendance. For the true believer, if he even ponders for a nanosecond that he might be wrong then he is sending himself into his own hell. Couple that with the fear that drives governments, media, and individuals that gives rise to such things as the White House contacting a loon to encourage him to not destroy a religious text and you have an environment in which this evil religion can grow and prosper. As well-known Atheist Richard Dawkins has said, by comparison Christianity is benign (note: this is not to say that it doesn't contain as much nonsense as Islam). If enlightened societies are going to survive, Islam must be relegated to the history books. It is time, I think, to state and state clearly, "Islam has no place in Western Democracies." Call a spade, a spade iow. In this country (the US) and perhaps others, Islam is nothing more than a euphemism for treason. There is simply no redeeming virtue to Islam and it will destroy us. But, only if we let it.

Examples of how our deference to Islam has eaten away at our very core are plentiful. We have Islamists to thank for the shredding of Amendments 1, 4 and 5. We have them to thank for the National Security State, the USA PATRIOT Act, mass murders, and so on. It's well past time to call Islam what it is: a violent cult. In this country, mosques should be treated no differently than Waco, TX.
New Are you say Waco was handled well for what was going on?
--

Drew
New Not at all.
My point is that a cult is a cult is a cult. The government cannot possibly defend treating one cult - like the one in Waco, differently from the Islamic cult.
New Tell me where we draw the cult/not-a-cult line, and we'll talk.
What would we do with Keith Ellison and Andre' Carson? What would we do with Dave Chappelle?

Cheers,
Scott.
New They can choose, Islam or here.
If those guys are decent human beings (and I've no reason to doubt that) then they aren't really Muslims in the first place. Much as sane Christians aren't really Christians. I mean, nobody actually believes a nice, young Jewish boy dead for over 2,000 years can really "save" them. I couldn't swallow that at age 9, and I'm confident no one really swallows that today. They're just afraid to say so. Pull out one of the more onerous stories in the New Testament and ask today's sane Christian if s/he actually believes the story. They'll say, "Well, we don't believe that anymore." Well, then man up and admit you know it's all a fairy tale.

Edit:
I just realized I didn't answer your question. If it's a religion, it's a cult.
Expand Edited by mmoffitt Jan. 12, 2015, 04:45:48 PM EST
New That's half of it
The other half is, now what do we do with them?

You're saying religions are cults, so we should treat religions the same way we treat cults. Got it.

Now how should we treat cults?
--

Drew
New 504c of coure, how else are you going to make money?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New "Treat [them] with ridicule, hatred and contempt." - Chris Hitchens.
More here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY8fjFKAC5k

IOW, repeal that tiny portion of Amendment 1 that still stands. Strip them of their tax-exemptions, remove their idiotic texts from all schools, and so on.
New Hitch would disagree with you, I think...
Readers Digest:

[...]

Almost all the celebrated free speech cases in the human record involve the strange concept of blasphemy, which is actually the simple concept that certain things just cannot be said or heard. The trial of Socrates involved the charge that his way of thinking caused young people to disrespect the gods. During the trial of Galileo, his findings about astronomy were held to subvert the religious dogma that our earth was the center and object of creation. The Scopes Monkey Trial in Dayton, Tennessee, involved the charge that Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species was profane and immoral as well as untrue. We look back on these moments when the authorities, and often the mob as well, decided to blind and deafen themselves and others, and we shake our heads. But with what right? There are many contemporary threats to the principle and the practice of free expression. I would nominate the theocratic one as the most immediately dangerous.

Ever since the religious dictator of Iran sponsored a murder campaign against a British-Indian novelist named Salman Rushdie, this time for authoring a work of fiction, there has been a perceptible constraint on the way people discuss the Islamic faith in public. For instance, when a newspaper in Denmark published some caricatures of the prophet Mohammed a few years ago, there was such an atmosphere of violence and intimidation that not a single mainstream media outlet in the United States felt able to reproduce the images so that people could form their own view. Some of this was simple fear. But some of it took a “softer” form of censorship. It was argued that tender sensibilities were involved — things like good community relations were at stake, and a diverse society requires that certain people not be offended.

Democracy and pluralism do indeed demand a certain commitment to good manners, but Islam is a religion that makes very large claims for itself and can hardly demand that such claims be immune from criticism. Besides, it’s much too easy to see how open-ended such a self-censorship would have to be. If I, for example, were to declare myself terribly wounded and upset by any dilution of the First Amendment (as indeed I am), I hope nobody would concede that this conferred any special privileges on me, especially if my claim of privilege were to be implicitly backed by a credible threat of violence.

Other attempts at abridging free expression also come dressed up in superficially attractive packaging. As an example, surely we should forbid child pornography? In a sense this is a red herring: Anybody involved in any way in using children for sex is already prosecutable for a multitude of extremely grave crimes. Free expression doesn’t really come into it. The censor is more likely to prosecute a book like Nabokov’s Lolita and yet have no power to challenge porn czars. And surely the spending of money isn’t a form of free speech, as our Supreme Court has more than once held it is, most recently, as pertaining to political campaign contributions.

I’m not so sure: The most impressive grassroots campaign of my lifetime — Senator Eugene McCarthy’s primary challenge to President Johnson in 1968 — was made possible by a few rich individuals who told him to go ahead and not worry about a slender war chest. And who is entitled to make the call about who may spend how much? Again, I haven’t been able to discover anybody to whom I would entrust that job.

The same objection applies to what is called hate speech. Here, again, there is no known way of gauging the influence of rhetoric on action. Try a thought experiment. Go back in time and force Sarah Palin, by law, to remove the “target” or “crosshair” symbols from certain electoral districts. Now are you confident that you will have soothed the churning mind of a youthful schizophrenic in Tucson, Arizona? I didn’t think so. Sane people can take a lot of militant rhetoric about politics. Insane people can be motivated by believing themselves to be characters in The Catcher in the Rye, a book I am glad is not banned.

“National security” is one of the oldest arguments here, for the good reason that it is always disputable. The purloining and dissemination of private documents written by other people, for example, is not always necessarily free expression, let alone free speech. It can also involve the exposure of third parties to danger, as appears to have been the case in the downloading of classified documents by Army private Bradley Manning and their use by Julian Assange and WikiLeaks.

We are all hypocrites here: I have myself written several articles based on Assange’s disclosures, while publicly disapproving of his tactics in acquiring the material in the first place. (And I didn’t need to read the list of terrorist-vulnerable facilities, including vaccine factories, that he dumped before me and who knows who else.) But in this age of ultrahacking, no law would have prevented these leaks, nor do such laws have much effect, and they never have. In a more slow-moving epoch, President Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and subjected certain editors to military censorship, though I have never seen it argued that he helped the war effort much by doing so.

The claim to possess exclusive truth is a vain one. And, as with other markets, the ones in ideas and information are damaged by distortion and don’t respond well to clumsy ad hoc manipulation. And speaking of markets, consider the work of the Indian economist Amartya Sen, who demonstrated that no substantial famine has ever occurred in a country that has uncensored information. Famines are almost invariably caused not by shortage of food but by stupid hoarding in times of crisis, practiced by governments that can disregard public opinion. Bear this in mind whenever you hear free expression described as a luxury.

In my career, I have visited dozens of countries undergoing crises of war or hardship or sectarian strife. I can say with as much certainty as is possible that, wherever the light of free debate and expression is extinguished, the darkness is very much deeper, more palpable, and more protracted. But the urge to shut out bad news or unwelcome opinions will always be a very strong one, which is why the battle to reaffirm freedom of speech needs to be refought in every generation.


(Emphasis added.)

Hitch didn't want any ideas censored.

Taxing religion is something lots of us could get behind, though.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Probably.
But if we allow Islam (and more broadly any of the medieval superstitious religions of fear) to dictate what can and cannot be said, we are, de facto, allowing the "free exercise" clause trump "the freedom of speech" clause. Thus, the first amendment is lost in any case. With religion, and in particular Islam, it's time to choose our poison.
New Berkeley '60s: curb your Dogma.. Hey! many did (did they regress?)
Is this not the circle-jerk which spins on frictionless bearings? (so favored in all elementary physics test problems.) The God-debate surely er, Christ-ened the accretion of IWE, in those bucolic years before the Shogunate's War on All Wisdom (and most just-plain Goodness.) But it keeps coming baaaack.

It's not about cerebral induction/deduction. NPR today: an OCD-guy on Fresh Air, wrote book re his own obsessive compulsion disorder, has studied same (as well as the studiers.) At geek-level etc. He be as 'rational' as my own nit-pickery levels can discern. Has made some progress, but.. it lurks still.
Not saying these afflicted are equivalent to the religious impetus, but we are still in infancy about brain-mapping and in even worse ignorance re consciousness, (IMO the #1 unanswerable riddle, via any mere logic.)

Further, there are esoteric levels where most religios never venture (look at all the Christians who never read enough Bible to See the effects of homo-sap tinkering, invention and the n Contradictions as resulted.) These care-not about such Referents as [The Absolute] nor would these comprehend (nor care to try) what it means to say, The Absolute is without attributes (as means: you could not possibly imagine What such an Overview would entail.) Forget yer anthropomorphic, gendered==hoary-old-Men.

But you Can postulate the existence of [Absolute], without wishful thinking or projection: "IT" was present "before!" T=0, in that: our local cosmology; equally so in the Steady-state-eternal previous model. That there is mathematics (all those processes) does not follow from any random thought-events: 'Laws' are 'Legislated'. We only discover them: whence came the Legislator(s)?

So the millions are all un-read amateurs (or worse: stuck in childhood) at the religio trade: just running on early-rote inculcation, which was quite enough. At age 5. Only they stayed there. And will.
(The real 'Arrested Development'? near species-wide), though the silliest are closing shop. Crap shoot.

(To me the longest running Cosmic-joke remains our total inability to comprehend consciousness: its origins, its How?s let alone Why?s), nor can we see Information Theory explain the presence of 'thought-bits?' without which: there would be nothing to communicate. (Let alone: how/why mathematics came to create/or-reveal itself.) Those are just a few.. of the unKnowable Questions which persist, will do so unless/until consciousness-itself creates that New-level which AE referred to in, Problems created at one level of thinking ... ... That was a metaphysical statement, by definition. AE's thoughts on 'god' were all worth parsing, I thought. He certainly eschewed the im-person-ation shtick.

We grok the physics of the material aspects of this goldfish bowl, each principle being testable. As to the realm of the conscious mind, the Reality of (or not) of thought-creation and all the rest: those demand many more Answers than the Big Bang brings to the table. We who 'do Science' fall into an easy conceit, in believing (at all levels of sci. education) that, our efforts are necessary of pursuit (for being incomplete) and: its method is all ye need to know to finally get a glimpse of Reality. That view almost-defines 'Western culture', no?

Ergo: religiosity shall never go away; it cannot be slain via rules of the physical universe, just as [Reality] utterly escapes representation--thus far--in the mental realms: as are also "in Existence: in any full-Cosmology" worth trying to map.
(And the impulse Shouldn't disappear.. at least not to any who crave to get near as possible to Truthiness ABOUT that "complete-Cosmos.") I wot. Why settle for the piker's version of the Game, just because it's popular because so easy.


My own proof-of-concept derives from Cosmic Humor: were there no such thing (?) I should have to invent it ... as did The Bard
... or begin sacrificing something.. to Something. ie I cannot live with this *shame © Shogun
* of our deliberate, infantile choosing of static-ignorance, worship-because-ƒeare (Dying or the other hobgoblins.)
Carrion ;^>
New You've been away from believers for too long.
There *are* people who definitely and passionately believe a nice Jewish boy who died 2000 years ago (note the change of tense, or you'll get arguments from them) can "save" them. Millions of them. Likewise, there are millions of people convinced that the words written down that claim to be from The Prophet are divine truth and not to be argued with.

Wade.
New I don't believe it. I believe they're lying.
I cannot accept that anyone is that gullible. If what you're saying is true, then all that is left to do is cheer for an oncoming comet. A big one. With proper aim at this little insignificant planet orbiting and even less significant yellow dwarf.
New How's that faith-based life treating you?
Once, people couldn't accept that the earth wasn't the center of the universe, despite mountains of evidence.

Some people can't accept that other races are fully human, despite mountains of evidence.

Some people can't accept that man's activities affect climate, despite mountains of evidence.

You can't accept that people actually believe the tenets of their religion ...
--

Drew
New What exists in your first 3 that doesn't in the last? A: Evidence.
New Missing my point (intentionally?)
I'm not saying there's evidence in support of their beliefs. I'm saying there's evidence that they believe it. You've stated clearly you "don't accept" that they actually believe it.

* They say they believe it.
* They take actions that can only be explained by the fact they believe it.
* They're willing to kill or die to defend it.

This isn't about their faith, it's about yours. You refuse the evidence in front of you because it doesn't fit with your worldview. You can't engage rationally with a reality you deny.
--

Drew
New If they actually believe it, they've been conned.
Protesting that they believe it and/or taking actions to suggest they believe it could be driven by fear. Religions are great at instilling fear.
New Religious education starts at age 0.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New why do you care?
did a hot blonde xian turn you down in your misspent yout?
You can believe anything you want, its fine with me as long as you stay out of my wallet and bedroom.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New Because Islam is teaching the lesser minds that if somebody draws a picture, you should kill them.
And while there is plenty-o-support for violence in the Xian bibbles, most of them don't actually act upon it.
Expand Edited by mmoffitt Jan. 13, 2015, 11:40:40 AM EST
New no, islam is not teaching that, Nut jobs are teaching that to poorly educated muslims
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New Really? Even at Oxford?
We have to make it clear that—there should be no confusion—Islamophobia is the racism, is the—but it’s only as citizens, it’s only in the critical debate, it’s only with all the forces and all the trends within our societies that are against any type of racism, that we are going to resist and reform the minds and the hearts of our fellow citizens. And it could never be accepted, never be supported, such actions that are now instrumentalizing some of the frustrations that we have in the West as to, you know, equal citizenship and racism, and using this to support what is in fact not acceptable and has to be condemned.

http://www.democracynow.org/2015/1/7/leading_muslim_scholar_tariq_ramadan_attack

Let me understand this. If I criticize Islam, I am a racist Islamophobe. And because of that, these poor, downtrodden Muslims are resorting to unacceptable means of "instrumentalizing some of the frustrations that we[they] have in the West." If we'd only be kinder to these fascists, they'd behave for us. That about it?

It cannot be "racism" to have deep hatred of Islam for the simple reason that religion != race. You can change your religion, but, ... oh, that's right, if you are a Muslim you can't, else you'll be killed. Yes, he's right. What an enlightened group of fucking people. Why wouldn't we want to sit down and discuss with them any number of topics?
New " this is just a pure betrayal of our religion and our principles, that that’s not acceptable"
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New Right. Followed by, "But ..."
New "But by any, any standard, we have to condemn what was done, and say it clearly: "
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New He claims to understand why they did it in my quote. He's equally culpable. Platitudes aside.
New So then, having seen the vid. of Tariq Ramadan -vs-HItchens,
and maybe Harris -vs- Craig (?)--and the number of nested conditional-clauses within every sentence, tip-toeing around the Islam predicament du jou--aren't we left with:

Teachers of Islam Fix-it, in their curriculum, in clear direct language and act to curb their own extremist killers OR !=Muslims everywhere are apt to act in the manner reliably chosen in similar clusterfucks, after all debates fail.

Of course too, Islam is not alone in the vast r e s t r a i n t of Robed-leaders in most religions, ever to expel? or otherwise punish significantly: their homicidal %small. But Techno has rendered that %small of THIS religion universally active and in increasingly bestial ways. Acts which directly attack all the basic concepts of any social order (including: attacks within and on, their own culture, of the acid in child's face level.)

On far less provocation than these-all, in recent years: n other States have gone to war with others. Now, it is not State -vs-State, but a sufficient %Islamics-vs-Every-State (as promulgated in their very-own Screed, with human-inscribed Words attributed to [The Only God evah! worth killing everyone-else Over.]
(Nor is there even an escape-clause for those sect-members who'd like to flee Islam: Death seems #1 through #100 of the top bestial punishments for quite more than apostasy. Catch 22)

W.T.F. do *you* think ... is Next?


Turned on KDFC: Dickie Wagner playing. From the Götterdammerung. Coincidence?
..depends upon one's view of Cosmic Humor, I guess. Wagner really knows how to 'play a slapstick-Act off the stage', though: swell to ƒƒƒƒ

I think I'm hearing prescient echoes for that Next.. more C. Humor? the ancient, now Corporate sects originated in the caves we are possibly loping towards.
Expand Edited by Ashton Jan. 13, 2015, 04:51:38 PM EST
New What Drew said.
There is mountains of evidence that there are billions of people who believe in their religious convictions. The Hajj. The Catholic Church. Westboro Baptists.

Wade.
New Lawyers call it "leading the witness".
That's what came to my mind watching that spiel.

90% of folks just go along with what's being said. Works with 18 y/olds trained to be soldiers and therefore killers on command.

It's the nature of humans, not only Muslims. Being ignorant does make one more susceptible. Be illiterate and you're like putty to be shaped.
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New Isn't that what all religions and their adherents do?
New "What Normal Muslims Think -..." This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim...
...by Det Islamske Nettverk.
Sorry about that.
("Det Islamske Nettverk" = "The Islamic Network" in Norwegian (and possibly Danish).)
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New What Atrios said.
Eschaton:

SUNDAY, JANUARY 11, 2015

For The Millionth Time, I Do Think Murder Is Bad

I do hate the game that gets played every time there's some horrific Islamic-linked terrorist attack, in which brave and noble pundits bravely and nobly declare that murder is bad and free speech is good, and then wonder why no one, especially those Muslims, agrees with them.

by Atrios at 14:57
268 Comments


It is a mystery...

Cheers,
Scott.
New Yes, that too.. but as one poster replied:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the cartoonists were socialist, very liberal, anti religion, pro choice, pro gay marriage, and pro soft drugs leagalazation.
In other words they were EVERYTHING the right hates, Sean Hannity bitches about, Ted Nugent warns us about, and some so called Christians call for their deaths. 
The terrorists ideology is closer to the right wing than anything else and that is a fact.

Does not the common denominator over time, of the truly barbaric acts now accelerating: map better to extreme political-Rightists rather than to any religio or atheist grouping?
(Of course this scribe picks the Murican-related topics and many of those are enmeshed in the various Corporate and fringe-sects as well: Venn needed?)

Indeed, Murder is Wrong, yet all societies make exceptions for every-War and local 'peace'-keeping. We always kick the can re executions/capital punishment, as do the Robed spokesMen (not so much spokesWomen) of the religious.

Nice try, though!


Bogus [Referents] for key-Words is all that's needed, for the USSC or any other Power-entity to confound any serious facing of the common-hypocrisy of (surely a plurality of?) homo-saps, today or in 1564, when The Bard was an infant. Seeking even a bit of Truthiness has been, manifestly, an exercise of an infinitesimal faction, despite the sometimes brilliant essays of Sages/Teachers from stone tablets on (humans haven't changed much since the caves, right?)

We're a mentally/emotionally-lazy bunch. Is that a qed?
{sigh}
New Two more "moderate" Muslims.
The deep sense of insult over the newspaper’s depictions of the prophet went far beyond the extremists to many devout Muslims who opposed the killing.

“This act doesn’t stand for what real Islam is,” said Fadi Yassin, an antigovernment activist in northern Syria reached through Skype. “But it also comes as a result of mistakes committed by the media that have for a longtime offended Muslims by insulting their sacred figures.”

Shadi Hamid, a fellow at the Brookings Institution and the author of a book on Islamist movements, said that mainline Islamist groups, like the Muslim Brotherhood parties in Egypt and Jordan, had condemned the violence but criticized the newspaper.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/world/europe/islamic-extremists-take-to-social-media-to-praise-charlie-hebdo-attack.html

Right. Those two wonderful Soldiers of God were provoked, after all. Where and why did we ever get the idea that we ought to respect religion? It's idiotic.

     the moderate muslim - (boxley) - (58)
         Succinct and.. simply Astounding! ..while so Very-long overdue. - (Ashton) - (2)
             Re: exceptions to the first amendment - (drook) - (1)
                 Delayed incitement isn't. - (Another Scott)
         Pointing to Egypt's al-Sisi as a good guy is a stretch... - (Another Scott) - (16)
             So if Nixon told Billy Graham to tone down anti gay rhetoric, it would be a bad thing? -NT - (boxley) - (14)
                 So, if Nixon locked up all the Democratic leaders and told them to be nice... -NT - (Another Scott) - (13)
                     So if Clinton locked up all the repos leaders and told them to be nice - (boxley) - (12)
                         al-Sisi locked up his opponents then told them to play nice. HTH. -NT - (Another Scott) - (11)
                             ah so Sisi is a bad guy, people who like jews published his statement on Islam - (boxley) - (10)
                                 No. That's not my view. - (Another Scott) - (9)
                                     I will address 3, 1&2 are not part of Islam - (boxley) - (8)
                                         That's fine as far as it goes. - (Another Scott) - (7)
                                             well since I invoked Godwin my last post :-) besides Obama has a nobel why not sisi? -NT - (boxley) - (3)
                                                 How do you "invoke" Godwin's Law? - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                     "Pedant" is just a nice word grammar Nazis use to describe themselves -NT - (drook) - (1)
                                                         I see what you did there... -NT - (malraux)
                                             Think you're missing the salient point. - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                 Maybe. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                     No, I share that POV (also too..) - (Ashton)
             He doesn't get a free pass just because he said something utterly-Sane, once - (Ashton)
         Along the lines of, "Hitch was right all along". - (mmoffitt) - (34)
             OK.. gantlet sorta run.. ... weird species, overall. - (Ashton) - (30)
                 Friday's Invisibilia - The Locked-in Man - (Another Scott) - (29)
                     I think that many have had that Wondering.. - (Ashton)
                     Religion precludes treatment. - (mmoffitt) - (27)
                         Are you say Waco was handled well for what was going on? -NT - (drook) - (26)
                             Not at all. - (mmoffitt) - (25)
                                 Tell me where we draw the cult/not-a-cult line, and we'll talk. - (Another Scott) - (24)
                                     They can choose, Islam or here. - (mmoffitt) - (23)
                                         That's half of it - (drook) - (5)
                                             504c of coure, how else are you going to make money? -NT - (boxley)
                                             "Treat [them] with ridicule, hatred and contempt." - Chris Hitchens. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                 Hitch would disagree with you, I think... - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                     Probably. - (mmoffitt)
                                                 Berkeley '60s: curb your Dogma.. Hey! many did (did they regress?) - (Ashton)
                                         You've been away from believers for too long. - (static) - (16)
                                             I don't believe it. I believe they're lying. - (mmoffitt) - (15)
                                                 How's that faith-based life treating you? - (drook) - (13)
                                                     What exists in your first 3 that doesn't in the last? A: Evidence. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (12)
                                                         Missing my point (intentionally?) - (drook) - (2)
                                                             If they actually believe it, they've been conned. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                 Religious education starts at age 0. -NT - (malraux)
                                                         why do you care? - (boxley) - (8)
                                                             Because Islam is teaching the lesser minds that if somebody draws a picture, you should kill them. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                                                 no, islam is not teaching that, Nut jobs are teaching that to poorly educated muslims -NT - (boxley) - (6)
                                                                     Really? Even at Oxford? - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                                                         " this is just a pure betrayal of our religion and our principles, that that’s not acceptable" -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                                                                             Right. Followed by, "But ..." -NT - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                 "But by any, any standard, we have to condemn what was done, and say it clearly: " -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                     He claims to understand why they did it in my quote. He's equally culpable. Platitudes aside. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                     So then, having seen the vid. of Tariq Ramadan -vs-HItchens, - (Ashton)
                                                 What Drew said. - (static)
             Lawyers call it "leading the witness". - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                 Isn't that what all religions and their adherents do? -NT - (mmoffitt)
             "What Normal Muslims Think -..." This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim... - (CRConrad)
         What Atrios said. - (Another Scott) - (1)
             Yes, that too.. but as one poster replied: - (Ashton)
         Two more "moderate" Muslims. - (mmoffitt)

She's sunk full fathom five, five, five!
359 ms