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New In other news, over 3,500 dead in Ukraine.
Mortar fire struck an apartment block in the rebel-held east Ukraine city of Donetsk overnight, yet another violation of a ceasefire between government forces and pro-Russian insurgents.

While both sides said Tuesday they saw progress on the ground in fulfilling an agreement to pull back heavy artillery weapons from the front line, on Wednesday Kyiv accused the rebels of violating a ceasefire imposed Sept. 5.

"The situation remains difficult," Col. Andriy Lysenko, spokesman for Ukraine's National Security and Defence Council, told journalists in Kyiv on Wednesday. "Ukrainian detachments comply with the ceasefire regime but the terrorists continue provocations," he said, referring to the pro-Russian separatists.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-ceasefire-breached-again-in-eastern-city-of-donetsk-1.2776122

So, the rebels are shelling their own locations now?

You've got to LOVE the link on that page, though.

"Barack Obama's Ukraine speech expected to touch on Ukraine"
New Face it, Putin is responsible for the carnage!
He's the one that ordered the invasion. The Russian dead soldiers are not even acknowledged as having died in Ukraine.

BBC
Where and how he was killed remains a mystery.

Oksana continued: "On 17 August the military commissar came to my parents and told them my brother had been killed."

"He said a shell fired from Ukrainian territory had landed on Konstantin's vehicle. That's all we knew, until the coffin arrived. The official said my brother had been killed in military exercises on the border with Ukraine," she said.

"Do you believe the words you are telling me?" Oksana asked the official.

"No," he replied.

"So why are you saying this?" Oksana inquired.

"They tell us that there is no war, that our soldiers are not involved," says Oksana now. "So who is responsible for his death? It is the only question which tortures me."

Russia's official position remains unchanged: there are no - and there never were any - Russian troops in eastern Ukraine.

Conclusion: there was no Russian invasion, no Russian incursion, no Kremlin-sponsored war.

It is a position that paints Russia as innocent bystander in the conflict
The "rebels" are not accepting Ukrainian control of the Donetsk airport. That's what the cease fire violations are all about. Are you expecting the airport to be surrendered?
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New Does Putin bear some responsibility? Of course.
But the junta in Kiev bears just as much, if not more. I ask again, "Why was it not acceptible to have an early election when no one has argued that the Ukrainian President ousted by a violent overthrow was not democratically elected?" The West is painting the illegal government in Kiev as a version of our Founding Fathers. That is nonsense. I don't give Putin a pass on this, but imo Kiev's thugs are hardly worth supporting. Whose tanks and mortars are blowing up maternity hospitals and apartments in the East? Is that necessary?

This is not an episode of the Lone Ranger. You don't have White Hats (Kiev) and Black Hats (Russia/Putin). And you can bet your last nickel that NATO/US/EU interest in the Ukraine is anything but benevolent.
New Here's what it's like in Putin's Ukraine:
WaPo

Democracy was not working and a revolution was needed to reset and try again. Yanukovych was and is corrupt Putin stooge.
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New Why bother?
He'll just say the glorious ends justify the means. He's a true believer.
New And here's what Kiev's governance in Odessa looks like.
–The “pro-Russian” activists had no weapons, only sticks or bats.

– The molotov cocktails came from outside the building.

–The (pro-Kiev or anti-Russian) radicals (later identified as mainly Pravy Sektor-w.e.) stormed the Trade Union house, and in a short time managed to break in.

– The woman in the video said she, along with three other women, and around twelve men, also with two dead men who were already dead (suffocated from the fire of the Molotov cocktails and the smoke), were in another room. The men had brought the two dead men to the women for first aid but it was too late… They then managed to blockade the entry to their room with cabinets and boxes and managed to hold the door for about 15 minutes.

–In this time all 16 barricaded people heard shots in the hallway.

–Then someone banged on the door and pleaded they let them get out of the hall. They said they were also pro-autonomy (i.e. anti-Kiev) activists.

–After a brief reflection and discussion, the men inside the room wanted to move the cabinets blocking the door, leaving only a small crack of the door open, to see what the situation was. Then the young thugs (they had lied) began immediately to shoot through the tiny door opening into the room where the 16 were.

–The woman (in the video) looked one of the thugs in the eye. He wore a black mask and, laughing, shot her with his pistol, but thank God, missing, and then shouted to his buddies, “I killed a Koloradin!”, slang for those seeking federal autonomy for the regional provinces.

-Then the thugs threw maybe 4 aerosol ballons with some sort of gas, into our room and 2-3 minutes later after the gas affected our men, they managed to break open the door and enter our room.

–And then immediately they shot all the men; and those who still were alive, they beat to death with hard bats. This with their words, “Let’s save the bullets and kill them so…” These beasts also beat the two dead men, despite the fact the women cried out that they were already dead…

–Then the thugs discussed that they wanted to bring the dead into the cellar.

-The four women begged them for mercy… and this woman (in the video-w.e.) told them that she had a small child and so…

- The four women were taken into the hallway and there was a real Hell. Many dead bodies lay everywhere, even on the stairway. Many of the terrorist thugs with dirty jokes, dragged the dead together, to be thrown into the cellar.

- Then the thugs grabbed one of the four women and shoved her somewhere. The witness (in the video) only heard her screams… then no more from the woman.

- The woman (in the video) was then interrogated for about fifteen minutes. The terrorist thugs demanded that she tell them the truth that she was a Russian. But she had a Ukrainian passport with her residence listed in Odessa.

- In the midst of all the chaos, she managed to flee the house where, by then, firemen and police stood. The firemen came after 1-hour 20-minutes, even though a fire station was directly across the street from the trade union house. They claimed they had been blocked from acting by the terrorist thugs.

All Ukrainian politicians in Kiev had praise for the massacre of the innocent civilians. And the terrorist thugs got bonus money.

In the basement of the house afterwards, many more dead bodies were found. Many others simply vanished.

Those who had been taken to hospitals soon fled from their beds because the Ukraine SBU security police were siezing all personal data from them, in order later to get further revenge.

WARNING: HIDEOUS PICTURES AT LINK
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/05/05/kiev-and-right-sector-kristallnacht-odessa-extreme-graphics/

But, these are our Contras Ukrainians, so it's okay, right?
New Should we trust the original source?
There are many examples of "pictures from Ukraine" being fake (or saying they're from Ukraine when they're not).

TinEye says the first image on that page was first found on May 2 from this guy's Twitter feed - https://twitter.com/AdvokatKubany

Is there some reason why we should trust him when his tagline is "lawyer from Russia in California."? Why should some guy in Orange County have the scoop?

I can't read Russian - maybe what's there convinces you that it's legitimate.

To be clear - I'm not saying it's fake. We don't know enough from the pictures themselves to know whether they depict what the commentary claims, though.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Don't like the source? How about the late Alex Cockburn's former haunt?
Photos of the victims of the Odessa fire which have been circulating on the Internet have cast doubt on the official version of events. It’s now clear that many of the anti-junta activists who occupied the Trade Unions House were neither burned to death nor died of smoke inhalation, but were savagely shot at point-blank range by agents and thugs who had infiltrated the building to kill as many of the occupants as possible, burn the corpses, and then slip away without notice. Some of the victims–like a young woman who was eight months pregnant –were strangled with an electrical chord and left slumped backwards over her desk in a room that shows no sign of fire or smoke damage. In another case, a woman was stripped naked from the waste down, raped, killed, and set ablaze.

In still other cases, victims with bullet-holes through their skulls, had flammable fluid dumped on their heads and were incinerated, leaving a charred head atop a corpse whose clothes were untouched by fire. The sloppily-executed killing-spree proves that the fire was not the result of a spontaneous clash between pro and anti-Kiev demonstrators, but a carefully planned black-op that likely involved foreign Intel agencies working hand-in-hand with the fascist junta government in Kiev. Did we mention that the CIA has taken up residence in the Ukrainian capital? Here’s the scoop from the AFP:

“Dozens of specialists from the US Central Intelligence Agency and Federal Bureau of Investigation are advising the Ukrainian government … helping Kiev end the rebellion in the east of Ukraine and set up a functioning security structure…” (CIA, FBI agents ‘advising Ukraine government: report, AFP)

We all know about the CIA’s energetic efforts to create a “functioning security structure” in nations around the world. The CIA’s presence in Ukraine suggests that the US was either actively involved in the Odessa incident or knows who was. Either way, there should be an independent investigation before the case is referred to the ICC for prosecution.

The rampage in Odessa is part a broader strategy to provoke Moscow into a military confrontation. US war planners want to draw Putin into a conflict to justify NATO expansion, block further EU-Russian economic integration, and facilitate the “pivot to Asia.” The victims in this tragedy were sacrificed to advance Washington’s imperial ambitions and to establish US global hegemony. Obama has repeatedly reiterated his unwavering support for the crackdown on dissidents in the east. In a Rose Garden press conference just days ago, the president applauded the military attack on civilians saying, “The Ukrainian government has shown remarkable restraint throughout this whole process.”

Indeed, the Odessa graveyards are now full of people who can attest to the great restraint of the junta government that Obama so admires.

The coverage of the Odessa massacre by the western media is as bad as any in recent memory. The giant news conglomerates no longer make any attempt to pretend they’re anything other propaganda organs for the State. Even by that low standard, the coverage has been abysmal. Here’s a typical summary from an article on the liberal website, Huffington Post.

“Police said the deadly fire broke out in a trade union building, but did not give details on how it started. Earlier, police said at least three people had died in a clash between the two sides in the city of 1 million.

According to Ukrainian news reports, the pro-Kiev demonstrators broke up an encampment of Moscow supporters outside the trade union building. The latter took refuge in the building, which then caught fire.
Odessa police spokesman Volodymyr Shasbliyenko told AP the fire apparently was caused by Molotov cocktails. He had no further details or identities of the victims.” (Odessa Building Fire Kills Dozens, AP)

The author deliberately misleads his readers about what really took place. The fire did not “break out” in a trade union building. It was started. There’s no debate about this. There’s video footage of the whole incident and tons of eyewitness reports. Right sector goons started the fire by throwing Molotov cocktails through the windows. It’s all on tape.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/08/false-flag-in-odessa/

How much more do you need to abandon the propagandist tale of "It's all Putin's fault"?
New Heh. It takes two to tango.
No doubt that there would be little violence if the people fighting the Russian invasion weren't fighting. That's not realistic, though, as we all know.

BBC Report on the events leading up to the fire, the fire, and the aftermath.

My over-riding position in this is that Ukraine is an independent state and has the right to enter into treaties with whomever it wishes, and it has the right to maintain its boarders like any other independent state. Putin is being a bully, and the violence is overwhelmingly on his hands. It is not my position that there are no fascists, or 127 fascists, or 99.97% fascists in the Ukrainian government.

I am reminded, though of arguments I heard in college that the USSR "had" to invade Afghanistan because the poor women there were wracked with tuberculosis because they were forced to wear head-scarfs. The Red Army's motives were pure and holy, you see... :-/

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Heh. Afghanistan.
I remember that very well. We (Dad, Mom, brother and I) were told we weren't going to the Olympics early - and sworn to secrecy. The reason was that my dad had been selected to go as a translator (we were going to go with him). I still cannot understand why we were told and, apparently, many if not all of our Olympic athletes were not told until the President made the "surprise" announcement.

The actual reason for the Soviet invasion was much simpler. They wanted a buffer state between them and Iran. The Ayatollah's revolution had struck fear into Soviet hearts that this Islamic revolution thing might appeal to many of the southern Soviet republics. I remember being a HUGE advocate for the US to join the USSR in the fight in Afghanistan. Of course, we were much too civilized to do that and instead boycotted the Olympics and armed and trained the Mujahaideen to fight against the Soviets. Spectacular idea that turned out to be, wasn't it?

New Interesting.
Maybe the lesson for Russia should have been that "buffer states" created by force aren't a good idea?

I wonder how that would apply to Ukraine today. Hmmm...

;-)

Afghanistan was complicated, even before the invasion - Wikipedia - Soviet War in Afghanistan. It's complicated today. Foreign military intervention, by anyone, wasn't a good idea. Dressing it up as being "for the poor suffering women" by the Spartacus Youth League true believers that I heard in college was laughable, even to me, back then. (Yes, there were parallels in Bush's invasion of Iraq as well...)

Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I don't think it was all that complicated.
First, we have, (Emphasis Mine), "Fifty-two American diplomats and citizens were held hostage for 444 days (November 4, 1979, to January 20, 1981), after a group of Iranian students, belonging to the Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line, who were supporting the Iranian Revolution, took over the U.S. Embassy in Tehran."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

Next we have (from your link), "The initial Soviet deployment of the 40th Army in Afghanistan began on December 24, 1979, under Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev."

So, 50 days after our embassy falls in Tehran, the Soviets invade Afghanistan. You think that was just a coincidence?
New Lots of things happened in November-December, 1979.
Wikipedia.

Vietnam invaded Cambodia the same day. Coincidence??

The folklore I heard was that the invasion had something to do with the things you cite (Iran, friendly client on the border), but it had more to do with the Brezhnev Doctrine:

As a direct result of the so-called ‘Brezhnev doctrine’, the USSR asserted its “right and duty” to go to war in foreign countries “if and when an existing socialist regime was threatened.”[5] This accounts for the increased overseas military, political, and economic support being given at this time to pro-Marxist régimes in Nicaragua, Angola, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Yemen, etc. Such expeditions were in line with the twin geopolitical objectives of the Soviet Union. The first Soviet policy consisted of preparing the Red Army for a potential conventional and, probably, nuclear confrontation with the US. Secondly, Moscow pledged to continue supporting “wars of national liberation” abroad.[6] The latter resulted in what some analysts cleverly called the Third World War.[7] It would be decisively challenged in the deserts and mountains of Afghanistan.


IOW, it's complicated. ;-)

That's my story, YMMV.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who thinks coincidences are quite common, actually.)
New "Complicated" ??? Try.. invented, spun, macerated and contrived (?)
{{sheesh}}

Surely you see ... within your own measured degree-of- doubt/maybe?/Certainy, the extent to which every factoid is suspect on-its-face? We "Know" ever so little right now just as.. we "Knew".. as: the Shogunate conned most-of the vox populi, as they launched their Glorious OIl-war: to be paid for from Iraq's brilliant Oil Future. You dismiss Mike's deductions as-if it were obvious that: You? I? Mike ARE vastly-more-accurately informed of (any?) of the very-similar clusterfucks worldwide? Do we not delude ourselves (about our Bayesian filters' Effectiveness?)

Maybe the take-away from this thread and the several related ones is ~ despite the vaunted techno-communications du jour, the techno has mainly.. exponentially increased the potential (and actuality) of n3 ways of hiding, morphing, re-assembling of pics/videos: per whatever political overview is expected within the local readership.
With few authentic journalists actually employed today: diluted by legions of amateurs and cadres of specially-skilled spin-doctors: we fancy that we Must be 'better informed' than ever; in the famous quip of [whomever] " ..communications'? we have many; communication--not much.

So each one of us, via fav sources may indeed construct a version, trying not to "lead the witness" to our fav overview. From my equally-iggerant POV: Mike's version is quite as credible as the opposition's well-phrased diametric rebuttals. But I do not kid myself that, in 2014 I can discern enough-of the subtle, premeditated admixture of lying + (Deep State? or just our Shallow-one?) algorithmic bloviations. And, amidst this chaos of absent-truthiness-by-design:) BHO's proclivity for presenting to us pabulum-grade Gross SImplicities always!, whether re expectations small-or-large! in the M.E. and--what was our topic?--UKRAINE per se:

Imperialism is the clear direction of dis-USA governance and this has been so.. for most of my sentient life in this bastion of double-speak and jingoist simplicities. I expect 'closure' re say The REAL Ukraine Story sometime after the hegemony of the Owners of the US government's policies (not stated ones; Actual ones) have been starkly revealed. That could occur only After the hegemony was finally extirpated and--most improbably--a near-democracy had begun to function on these shores.

(All fanciful musings, of course: I be long Daid before This Tribe will ever risk the acute discomfort of any 'revolution' that is more than its usual verbal construct, always in-lieu-of-any Action (beyond token.)
We are thralls of our demands for ever-more-Comfort, 24/7. This defect alone may tip the planetary clusterfuck decisions into FAIL.

This is-all a fucking Shadow Play; its onion-layers almost totally within Stealth armor ... as viewable by my (or your?) radar. If that is not obvious via all previous rewritings of the "histories" we first viewed as tykes, onward? ..then I must have missed the Bay of Tonkin, the Grenada invasion, Nicaragua, the manufacured-financial crashes, everything to do with Cuba, "Command and Control" (the nuke near-disasters) [want 33 more?]


We are DROWNING in speculations.. especially on any Important topic! as never before. It will become worse.
Above all, each one of us is charged Not-to-be/become within the crowd: Gehabt, Kindern! We'vee Been Had more times than a ____
n'est ce pâs, mon frere?
tl;dr: From the rubble of 'Ukraine' may.. rise a proto-democracy quite before such a revisitation occurs in the smug, Entitled, anti-Reasoning dis-USA,
or my name isn't H. L. Mencken III (either.)
New What Russia could have learned from Afghanistan.
The West (and in particular the US) will come to the aid of anyone( be they thugs, fascists,religious zealots, megalomaniacs, psychotics of any stripe, etc.) who wishes to take up arms against Soviet Russian aggression. It's good for our economy. Plus, we haven't forgotten that those damned Rooskies tried to set up a Commynist Gubenment based on principles that are an anathema to the foundations of the Capitalist Tycoon Gubenments created in the West. We'll never forgive them for that, by God.
New Well.. the 'by God' kinda blows the comparo, eh? :-0
I mean.. the Official Soviet non-God/vacuum seemed about as creepy ... as many of the alleged practitioners (while being creeps also too)
... of the Corporate digital yes/no choices.
     In other news, over 3,500 dead in Ukraine. - (mmoffitt) - (15)
         Face it, Putin is responsible for the carnage! - (a6l6e6x) - (14)
             Does Putin bear some responsibility? Of course. - (mmoffitt) - (13)
                 Here's what it's like in Putin's Ukraine: - (a6l6e6x) - (12)
                     Why bother? - (crazy)
                     And here's what Kiev's governance in Odessa looks like. - (mmoffitt) - (10)
                         Should we trust the original source? - (Another Scott) - (9)
                             Don't like the source? How about the late Alex Cockburn's former haunt? - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                                 Heh. It takes two to tango. - (Another Scott) - (7)
                                     Heh. Afghanistan. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                         Interesting. - (Another Scott) - (5)
                                             I don't think it was all that complicated. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                 Lots of things happened in November-December, 1979. - (Another Scott)
                                             "Complicated" ??? Try.. invented, spun, macerated and contrived (?) - (Ashton)
                                             What Russia could have learned from Afghanistan. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                 Well.. the 'by God' kinda blows the comparo, eh? :-0 - (Ashton)

You lucky bastard!
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