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New You and I apparently have different definitions of "hostile".
When was the last time the US/NATO had military exercises with North Korea?

:-/

Until Russia moved into Ukraine, there was little in the way of "hostility" between NATO and Russia. Since then, well....

Of course, NATO was formed in reaction to Uncle Joe's blockading Berlin, so there was a bit of hostility at the founding. But that lessened substantially (withness the joint military exercises not that long ago) up until recently.

Since we can't agree on what "hostile" means, and apparently think that Russia Putin should have a permanent veto on the policies of his sovereign neighbors, and seem to think that EU == NATO when it comes to economic agreements, it's sorta hard to have a meaningful conversation on the topic. But I'll continue to snipe when the mood strikes. ;-)

Have fun.

Cheers,
Scott.

New Can we at least agree this is a dangerous situation being handled poorly?
The Russians seem to be pretty scared. See here: http://forum.iwethey.org/forum/post/394386/
New By Putin? Yes, we can agree he's handling it poorly.
I don't think that Obama has done anything as bad as Putin has these last few months especially.

Even if we stipulate, for sake of argument, that Russia is entitled to a "sphere of influence", we do not agree that Russia has the right to invade and annex its neighbors.

The principle that national borders cannot be changed unilaterally is a pretty big deal. A very big deal. Do we want India and China marching on each other to take land that is "historically theirs" or "in their sphere of influence" or ....? You're aware of what's going on in the South China Sea now, right?

Obama has said multiple times, and demonstrated that he believes, that the Ukrainian problem is not a military problem. He's also said, categorically, that an attack on a NATO member is an attack on all. His hands are tied by the NATO treaty even if he didn't personally believe that war was a good idea. The Constitution saying that it and treaties are the supreme law of the land and all that.

Ukraine is in a bad spot for a lot of reasons. We're not going to go to war over it (even though we promised to protect its territorial integrity after they gave up their nukes). But we cannot, and will not, just sit back and say, "Oh well, Putin wants his sphere of influence, so that's the way the cookie crumbles." Putin is going to pay an economic and political price for his actions.

I suspect the way out is a weaker central government in Ukraine and an understanding (maybe unwritten) that Ukraine will not request NATO membership for X generations. I can't get a read on EU membership or not - maybe Putin will let that go in exchange for the no-NATO thing. Hard to tell.

Putin's playing with fire, though. Sabre-rattling only goes so far and doesn't make economic partners very happy...

(While I'm sure it's tempting to bring up Iraq - 1) we didn't carve it up, 2) we left, 3) subsequent administration has said the invasion was a mistake. Putin's greater-Russia actions are making it very difficult for him to back down (and harder still for anyone following him). I don't think Iraq applies here, and we know the arguments.)

I don't think we'd invade Puerto Rico if it were independent and wanted to join EU. YMMV. :-p

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Then I guess we can't agree.
And I don't think the Russians will "just take our word for it" after the NATO expansion lie we told. You see the history of unrest beginning with Russia's actions in grabbing Crimea. I see the history of unrest dating back much further: all the way to at least 1998 and there's sufficient stuff on this board already about that. You choose to dismiss that and lay the entirety of the blame for the situation at Putin's feet. I think that is a vast oversimplification. YMMV. FWIW.
New Putin has agency. He's not been forced to do any of this stuff.
Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Next! :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
     Our dirty hands in the Ukraine. - (mmoffitt) - (11)
         Lots of weird assertions in there. - (Another Scott) - (10)
             Spot on, Scott! - (a6l6e6x)
             I call BS. - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                 You realize the US/NATO and Russia had military exercises together, right? - (Another Scott) - (7)
                     You can't be serious. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                         You and I apparently have different definitions of "hostile". - (Another Scott) - (4)
                             Can we at least agree this is a dangerous situation being handled poorly? - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                 By Putin? Yes, we can agree he's handling it poorly. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                     Then I guess we can't agree. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                         Putin has agency. He's not been forced to do any of this stuff. - (Another Scott)
                         The EU is not hostile to Russia - (pwhysall)

30,000 pounds.... of bananas!
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