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New Our dirty hands in the Ukraine.
If the United States and Europe were thinking rationally, the NATO summit in Wales last week would have been an opportunity to discuss a lasting resolution to the violent crisis in Ukraine, which has claimed thousands of lives and crippled the country’s economy. Instead, amid a fragile cease-fire agreement between Kiev and pro-Russian rebels in the east, the assembled world leaders used the summit for more belligerent talk and reckless saber-rattling, with their ultimate goal increasingly unclear. The goal seemed more preparing the NATO alliance for a new Cold War with Russia than exploring how to make peace, even as Moscow was helping to bring about the cease-fire agreement.

The meeting was just the most recent disturbing example of how cavalierly and cynically the NATO leaders — including President Obama — have escalated tensions, while dismissing opportunities to bring the conflict to a reasonable conclusion quickly. Absent from the discussion in Wales, among other things, was any recognition of NATO members’ own roles in triggering the crisis. Despite the dominant narrative that Russia is to blame for Ukraine’s uncertain future, history tells a different story — one in which the West’s provocative behavior has had predictable repercussions.

There would have been no civil war if the European Union’s leadership had not insisted on an exclusive association agreement that prejudiced Ukrainian industry in the east and trade with Russia, or if the United States and European nations had used their influence with the demonstrators to abide by the Feb. 21 agreement then-President Viktor Yanukovych signed, which would have handed more power to parliament and called for elections in December, or if the United States and Europe had been willing to work with Russia to restore the Feb. 21 agreement and calm worries in Crimea and the east about the rights of Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

Instead the U.S. and E.U. have encouraged the most radical elements in the Kiev government in their campaign to subjugate the east with military force — to seek a military solution to what is essentially a political problem in a deeply divided and economically fragile Ukraine.

Our responsibility goes beyond the immediate crisis, too. There would not have been such a concerted Russian nationalist response to the crisis had the West not sowed the seeds of suspicion and mistrust over the past 18 years by growing NATO’s presence in Eastern Europe, in spite of the assurances that Russia ostensibly received from the George H.W. Bush administration that “NATO will not expand one inch to the east.” Russia clearly views NATO expansion not only as provocative but also as a betrayal of an agreement, and it perceives NATO’s push toward its borders as an act of aggression — and Western leaders know it.

In this sense, NATO expansion is not a consequence of tension with Russia; it is the cause. As George Kennan, known as the “father of containment,” warned some 16 years ago, NATO’s willful expansion would create lasting tension. “I think it is the beginning of a new cold war,” Kennan said in a 1998 interview with Thomas Friedman, reacting to the alliance’s pending additions of Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic. “I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/katrina-vanden-heuvel-nato-passes-the-blame-on-crisis-it-triggered-in-ukraine/2014/09/08/2841f35a-378a-11e4-9c9f-ebb47272e40e_story.html
New Lots of weird assertions in there.
There would have been no civil war if the European Union’s leadership had not insisted on an exclusive association agreement that prejudiced Ukrainian industry in the east and trade with Russia, or [...], or if the United States and Europe had been willing to work with Russia to restore the Feb. 21 agreement and calm worries in Crimea and the east about the rights of Russian-speaking Ukrainians.


(Emphasis added.)

Wut?

I don't see anything in the Association Agreement about it being "exclusive". Maybe I missed it.

Is Poland (an EU (and NATO) member that was also once part of the USSR (at least in part)) forbidden to trade with Russia? I don't think so.

The war in Ukraine is (nearly) all Putin's fault. He wants to reconstitute a rump-USSR as its collapse was "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century", and have vassal states on his border where he can throw his weight around. People shouldn't make excuses for him.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Spot on, Scott!
If not well reasoned, a probably paid political shill's opinion is worthless.
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New I call BS.
He wants to reconstitute a rump-USSR ...

What he doesn't want are hostile military forces on his border. We are pushing that and have been since Clinton (as my previous post clearly indicates to anyone not suffering the effects of drowning in Yankee Imperialist Propaganda).

HTH.
New You realize the US/NATO and Russia had military exercises together, right?
E.g. http://www.businessinsider.com/joint-us-russia-military-drills-2012-4

In what way is the EU "hostile" to Russia?

Remember, this whole situation blew up because Yanukovich was pressured by Putin not to sign the Association Agreement with the EU. Not NATO.

Come on - you're not even trying here...

Cheers,
Scott.
New You can't be serious.
In what way is the EU "hostile" to Russia?

European nations are not hostile to Russia? Please. I'm reminded of that song, "Don't know much about hist-to-ry..." But I didn't really say that the EU was hostile to Russia, did I? I said NATO was. What do you imagine was the rationale for NATO? NATO forces protect their members from whom? That's not hostile? Forming a military coalition against a State is not in and of itself hostile to that State? And *I'm* not even trying?
New You and I apparently have different definitions of "hostile".
When was the last time the US/NATO had military exercises with North Korea?

:-/

Until Russia moved into Ukraine, there was little in the way of "hostility" between NATO and Russia. Since then, well....

Of course, NATO was formed in reaction to Uncle Joe's blockading Berlin, so there was a bit of hostility at the founding. But that lessened substantially (withness the joint military exercises not that long ago) up until recently.

Since we can't agree on what "hostile" means, and apparently think that Russia Putin should have a permanent veto on the policies of his sovereign neighbors, and seem to think that EU == NATO when it comes to economic agreements, it's sorta hard to have a meaningful conversation on the topic. But I'll continue to snipe when the mood strikes. ;-)

Have fun.

Cheers,
Scott.

New Can we at least agree this is a dangerous situation being handled poorly?
The Russians seem to be pretty scared. See here: http://forum.iwethey.org/forum/post/394386/
New By Putin? Yes, we can agree he's handling it poorly.
I don't think that Obama has done anything as bad as Putin has these last few months especially.

Even if we stipulate, for sake of argument, that Russia is entitled to a "sphere of influence", we do not agree that Russia has the right to invade and annex its neighbors.

The principle that national borders cannot be changed unilaterally is a pretty big deal. A very big deal. Do we want India and China marching on each other to take land that is "historically theirs" or "in their sphere of influence" or ....? You're aware of what's going on in the South China Sea now, right?

Obama has said multiple times, and demonstrated that he believes, that the Ukrainian problem is not a military problem. He's also said, categorically, that an attack on a NATO member is an attack on all. His hands are tied by the NATO treaty even if he didn't personally believe that war was a good idea. The Constitution saying that it and treaties are the supreme law of the land and all that.

Ukraine is in a bad spot for a lot of reasons. We're not going to go to war over it (even though we promised to protect its territorial integrity after they gave up their nukes). But we cannot, and will not, just sit back and say, "Oh well, Putin wants his sphere of influence, so that's the way the cookie crumbles." Putin is going to pay an economic and political price for his actions.

I suspect the way out is a weaker central government in Ukraine and an understanding (maybe unwritten) that Ukraine will not request NATO membership for X generations. I can't get a read on EU membership or not - maybe Putin will let that go in exchange for the no-NATO thing. Hard to tell.

Putin's playing with fire, though. Sabre-rattling only goes so far and doesn't make economic partners very happy...

(While I'm sure it's tempting to bring up Iraq - 1) we didn't carve it up, 2) we left, 3) subsequent administration has said the invasion was a mistake. Putin's greater-Russia actions are making it very difficult for him to back down (and harder still for anyone following him). I don't think Iraq applies here, and we know the arguments.)

I don't think we'd invade Puerto Rico if it were independent and wanted to join EU. YMMV. :-p

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Then I guess we can't agree.
And I don't think the Russians will "just take our word for it" after the NATO expansion lie we told. You see the history of unrest beginning with Russia's actions in grabbing Crimea. I see the history of unrest dating back much further: all the way to at least 1998 and there's sufficient stuff on this board already about that. You choose to dismiss that and lay the entirety of the blame for the situation at Putin's feet. I think that is a vast oversimplification. YMMV. FWIW.
New Putin has agency. He's not been forced to do any of this stuff.
Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Next! :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New The EU is not hostile to Russia
Suspicious, yes. And with good reason; Russia is on the cusp of being a failed state headed by a cult of personality and it's only inertia that stops it being another Turkmenistan.

But hostile? No.
     Our dirty hands in the Ukraine. - (mmoffitt) - (11)
         Lots of weird assertions in there. - (Another Scott) - (10)
             Spot on, Scott! - (a6l6e6x)
             I call BS. - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                 You realize the US/NATO and Russia had military exercises together, right? - (Another Scott) - (7)
                     You can't be serious. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                         You and I apparently have different definitions of "hostile". - (Another Scott) - (4)
                             Can we at least agree this is a dangerous situation being handled poorly? - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                 By Putin? Yes, we can agree he's handling it poorly. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                     Then I guess we can't agree. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                         Putin has agency. He's not been forced to do any of this stuff. - (Another Scott)
                         The EU is not hostile to Russia - (pwhysall)

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