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New Huh?
New Excellent al punte! Also too:
*Collectively exhaustive events.

* as might well apply to most-every political so-called dichotomy, as-in: every (maybe-even-So) Issue as manifests in the now utterly dysfunctional Executive, Legislative, Judicial sub-Systems as once governed the dis-USA and all now trapped-within-Her?

Does it not seem, more and more, that in the Word-crafting workshop of the mind: today, tautologies and other definable Logic Errors are the main currency? (especially in a %huge of what we term, the meeja) and.. if this is not premeditated-Language Murder via very many perps: what Is it? (aside from the obvious implication: a Death-wish writ large.)

Thanks, virtuoso distilling there. It's always comforting, within any massive unravelling of many previous suppositions about a One's environment: to grok a little better the Root-causes--in case there should be a future (wherein the Lesson actually got Learned.)
(Methinks we remain starkly within the Discovery-phase of any such enlightenment: with massive Forces, largely about $$/greed and Me-Me-solipsism lobbing every armor-piercing projectile against Reason, which they can afford.) They can afford to buy a lot.



Carrion. Caves are inviting; they seem to offer comfy protection from the elements, quietude, no wristwatches needed and ... they are low-maintenance, to boot.
New I say again, Huh?
Cohen lists three possible outcomes. The list is not exhaustive nor is there any claim that no other possible outcomes exist. My subject says "a peaceful way out" not "the peaceful way out." Cohen says the fallacies are what US policy rests "almost completely" not "completely" upon. I really don't understand your criticism.

Are you critical of my subject line? Cohen's list? Cohen's suggested possible peaceful remedy? Or is this just another example of your knee-jerk impulse to protect His Holiness President Obama?
New You seem to be intentionally obtuse and blind here.
Not much AS or really anyone here can do for you at the moment.

Sorry, Mike.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
New It's an interesting article on an important topic, but a very poor argument.
—Fallacy No. 1: Ever since the end of the Soviet Union in 1991, Washington has treated post-Communist Russia generously as a desired friend and partner, making every effort to help it become a democratic, prosperous member of the Western system of international security. Unwilling or unable, Russia rejected this American altruism, emphatically under Putin.

Fact: Beginning in the 1990s, again with the Clinton administration, every American president and congress has treated post-Soviet Russia as a defeated nation with inferior legitimate rights at home and abroad. This triumphalist, winner-take-all approach has been spearheaded by the expansion of NATO ...


MEGO (my eyes glaze over) when I see rhetoric like that.

We've had a complex relationship with the USSR and Russia for a very long time. Nixon sold grain to them. W pushed for missile defense in Europe while "seeing Putin's soul". Nobody with any sense thinks that we've just been (or tried to be) BFF with Russia since 1991 or that we've simply rubbed our hands in glee over their problems.

He's framing the issue as black and white. It isn't. Saying Putin should quit trying to impose his will in the sovereign state of Ukraine is not the same as supporting Nazis. Framing the argument as if it were is not productive.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Amen!
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New Well put.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
New Let me try to understand.
Saying Putin should quit trying to impose his will in the sovereign state of Ukraine is not the same as supporting Nazis.


I see two possible explanations for your position.

(1) You really don't know who the vaunted "Kiev fighters" are.

If that's the case, you might like ... (Emphasis Mine.)
Throughout the Ukraine crisis, the US State Department and mainstream media have downplayed the role of neo-Nazis in the US-backed Kiev regime, an inconvenient truth that is surfacing again as right-wing storm troopers fly neo-Nazi banners as they attack in the east.

The New York Times reported almost in passing on Sunday that the Ukrainian government’s offensive against ethnic Russian rebels in the east has unleashed far-right paramilitary militias that have even raised a neo-Nazi banner over the conquered town of Marinka, just west of the rebel stronghold of Donetsk.

http://truth-out.org/news/item/25566-nyt-discovers-ukraines-neo-nazis-at-war

or

(2) Just because we and NATO are providing aid to Neo-Nazis in order to kill ethnic Russians and further cripple Putin, doesn't mean we're supporting Neo-Nazis.

If that's it, well, I don't really have any rebuttal except to say that I don't agree.
New just becaue the Ukraine has a history of rw facists
well documented nazi partisans, they also have a history of partisans that fought against both the nazis and the reds going back to the 1920's. Are the rw neonazi militias fighting in eastern Ukraine? Sure, are there actual russians, not just ethnic russians fighting in eastern ukraine? Sure, killing attracts the whack jobs but they are not the dominant parties involved.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New Thanks.
New tl;dr
Shorter:

Once the shooting starts, bad people join both/all sides.
--

Drew
New I didn't mean to suggest all Ukrainians are Nazis. I have firsthand better than that.
I went to 4th Grade here: http://goo.gl/maps/ZNj68. And of course, there's Alex. :0)

But in your post you assumed facts that are not certain. You may think you know that there are "actual russians, not just ethnic russians fighting in eastern ukraine" and there well could be, but you cannot know that for certain. Remember how certain everyone (in the West at least) was that the Maidan snipers were Yanokovych thugs? How'd that turn out? Oops, those were our guys.

New recently resigned head of new russia was a russian citizen
didn't live in the ukraine until the fun started.
from phht http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Borodai
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28450303
"Volunteers are joining us," he told the Newsnight programme, describing himself as one of them - "a resident of the city of Moscow".
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New "Our guys"?
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/04/03/dispatches-where-truth-behind-ukraine-s-maidan-sniper-attacks

APRIL 3, 2014

Yulia Gorbunova

Today senior Ukrainian government officials shared preliminary findings of the new government’s investigation into February’s events that resulted in the killing of protesters, and ultimately the ouster of Ukraine’s then-president Viktor Yanukovich.

The clashes that took place from February 18 to 20 were the bloodiest in Ukraine's post-Soviet era: More than 70 people – both protesters and law enforcement – were killed in gunfire, including by sniper shootings. Responsibility for the sniper killings on Maidan have been hotly debated both in Ukraine and internationally.

The interior minister today said investigators had photo and video evidence confirming the involvement of Ukraine’s riot police, Berkut, in a sniper attack on February 20. The shooting resulted in the deaths of 17 protesters (one machine gun was used to gun down 8 people). Several police officers have been detained as suspects. The interior minister accused the former interior minister, along with Ukraine's security services – the SBU – of direct involvement in giving orders for this and other attacks, and alleged that former officials from the Interior Ministry, the SBU, and the prosecutor general's office destroyed documentary and other evidence, forcing the investigators to start from scratch.

[...]


The 2nd link says:

Paet goes on to say that there’s a quickly growing “understanding” that “behind the snipers was not [the ousted President Viktor] Yanukovich but somebody from the new coalition,” and that the coalition doesn’t want to investigate. That, however, was not the doctor’s conclusion, but rather Paet’s guess. Paet later denied assigning blame for the snipers to the new coalition and warned journalists against taking his words out of context.

The doctor later said that she didn’t tell Paet that both police and protesters had the same type of wounds, as she had only seen wounded and killed protesters and had no access to wounded or killed policemen.


IOW, the leaked phone call isn't a smoking gun.

I wouldn't want to claim the snipers as "our guys", myself. YMMV.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I wouldn't believe anything coming from Kiev.
Remember, they are guilty of an illegal coup d'etat. They are criminals.

Much of the rest of the known case against Russia comes from claims made by the Ukrainian regime, which emerged from the unconstitutional coup d’etat against elected President Viktor Yanukovych on Feb. 22. His overthrow followed months of mass protests, but the actual coup was spearheaded by neo-Nazi militias that overran government buildings and forced Yanukovych’s officials to flee.

In recognition of the key role played by the neo-Nazis, who are ideological descendants of Ukrainian militias that collaborated with the Nazi SS in World War II, the new regime gave these far-right nationalists control of several ministries, including the office of national security which is under the command of longtime neo-Nazi activist Andriy Parubiy.[See Consortiumnews.com’s “Ukraine, Through the US Looking Glass.”]

It was this same Parubiy whom the [Washington] Post writers turned to seeking more information condemning the eastern Ukrainian rebels and the Russians regarding the Malaysia Airlines catastrophe. Parubiy accused the rebels in the vicinity of the crash site of destroying evidence and conducting a cover-up, another theme that resonated through the MSM.

Without bothering to inform readers of Parubiy’s unsavory neo-Nazi background, the Post quoted him as a reliable witness declaring: “It will be hard to conduct a full investigation with some of the objects being taken away, but we will do our best.”

In contrast to Parubiy’s assurances, the Kiev regime actually has a terrible record of telling the truth or pursuing serious investigations of human rights crimes. Still left open are questions about the identity of snipers who on Feb. 20 fired on both police and protesters at the Maidan, touching off the violent escalation that led to Yanukovych’s ouster. Also, the Kiev regime has failed to ascertain the facts about the death-by-fire of scores of ethnic Russians in the Trade Union Building in Odessa on May 2. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Burning Ukraine’s Protesters Alive.”]

The Kiev regime also duped the New York Times (and apparently the U.S. State Department) when it disseminated photos that supposedly showed Russian military personnel inside Russia and then later inside Ukraine. After the State Department endorsed the “evidence,” the Times led its newspaper with this story on April 21, but it turned out that one of the key photos supposedly shot in Russia was actually taken in Ukraine, destroying the premise of the story. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “NYT Retracts Ukraine Photo Scoop.”]

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

One of my first posts on this topic was about truth being the first casualty of war. The West's reporting on this has a clear bias favoring the Neo-Nazi laden illegal government in Kiev. Russia remains a villain to the West. They became the "Evil Empire" not due to the atrocities of the Bolsheviks, but because of the perceived relationship of Bolshevik Russia to Marxism. We, in the West, will never trust that all Communist sentiment has been purged from Russia and so they are the natural enemies of the neo-Fascist Corporate World Order of which the US is a founding member. The thing is, when we let our natural "We must protect the corporate elite from the great unwashed laborers" sentiment get ahead of us, it often turns out very badly for us. I see our backing of the Kiev junta against Russia in much the same light as I saw our backing of the Mujahideen against the Soviet Union. YMMV - especially if you "trust" the corporate owned media in this country.
New That's been clear from the beginning. (sigh).
We seem to take different events/facts as being most important. You, apparently, buy the Kremlin line that the fleeing/ouster of Yanukovich was an illegal coup led by neo-Nazis that had little or nothing to do with genuine public protests and legal actions by the elected assembly. I take the view that whether or not there are a small number of neo-Nazis who participated in the protests and in the fighting is almost irrelevant; Putin had no right to annex Crimea (with unlabeled Russian troops and a farcical plebiscite) and, now, attempt to split off eastern Ukraine. Ukraine is a sovereign state and Russia should must butt out. Modern international relations have a bedrock principle that international borders cannot be changed by unilateral actions. Letting Putin take Crimea and eastern Ukraine without serious consequences would open a Pandora's box...

As long as the starting points are so different, we're not going to reach consensus or even come closer to clarity in what is going on.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Crimea and Eastern Ukraine are different subjects. And it isn't just a "Kremlin line".
Did someone forget to brief President Obama and tell him that the constitutional government of Ukraine was overthrown?

Because Obama just completed a press conference where he claimed Crimea could not vote to join the Russian Federation because it violated Ukraine’s “Constitution.” Which is interesting because under that constitution Viktor Yanukovych is still president. The vote in the parliament in Kiev was blatantly illegal and mostly a symbolic attempt to legitimize the violent overthrow of the elected president which, not surprisingly, is not allowed under the Ukrainian Constitution.

http://news.firedoglake.com/2014/03/06/did-president-obama-forget-ukraines-government-was-overthrown/

What I'm talking about is not only the fact that most observers have concluded that the violent overthrow of the democratically elected Ukrainian government was conducted by ultra-nationalist neo-Nazis, but that those same Neo-Nazis now have positions of power in the so-called new Ukrainian government. I'm not saying that the grievances of those protesting were without merit. To echo a sentiment you've expressed about our politics here, "Vote them out!" That could have been accomplished within a year. There was an election scheduled for December of this year. That would have been the Democratic thing to do. But the thugs in Kiev are not interested in democracy.

Look at who is "fighting the good fight in Eastern Ukraine" for $DEITY's sake!
Andriy Parubiy [right] co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (subsequently renamed Svoboda) was appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee (RNBOU). (Рада національної безпеки і оборони України), a key position which overseas the Ministry of Defense, the Armed Forces, Law Enforcement, National Security and Intelligence.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

In that article, take a look at the photo op with our Assistant Secretary of State. To her left is a Nazi - Oleh Tyahnybok.
New No they're not. It's the same thing.
Crimea and eastern Ukraine are pieces of the same problem. The problem being Putin's refusal to accept that Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

Continuing to yell Nazi isn't helping your case.

Here:

This article lists political parties in Ukraine. Ukraine has a multi-party system with numerous political parties, in which no one party often has a chance of gaining power alone, and parties must work with each other to form coalition governments.

Many parties in Ukraine have very small memberships and are unknown to the general public. Party membership in Ukraine is lower than 1% of the population eligible to vote (compared to an average 4.7% in the European Union[1]).[2][3] National parties currently not represented in Ukraine’s national parliament Verkhovna Rada do have representatives in municipal counsels.[4][5][6][7] Small parties used to join in multi-party coalitions (electoral blocks) for the purpose of participating in parliamentary elections; but on November 17, 2011 the Ukrainian Parliament approved an election law that banned the participation of blocs of political parties in parliamentary elections.[8] Ukrainian society's trust of political parties is very low overall.[9] According to an April 2014 poll by Razumkov Centre 14.7%.[10] Ukraine’s election law forbids outside financing of political parties or campaigns.[11]


The article goes on to say that there are 2001 registered political parties in Ukraine as of November 2012.

I guess Vladimir should have been preparing to invade Hungary again to protect ~ 160,000 Russian speakers from the neo-Nazis there, eh? :-/

I think I'm about done.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Did you read your link?
After opposition factions and defectors from Yanukovych's Party of Regions cobbled together a parliamentary quorum in the Verkhovna Rada, the national legislature voted on 22 February to remove Viktor Yanukovich from his post on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties,[28] although the legislative removal lacked the required votes according to the constitution in effect at the time,...The revolution against Yanukovich triggered a political crisis in Crimea, which started as demonstrations against new central authorities...


If they are the "same thing" then all of the trouble can be laid at feet of the forces responsible for the coup d'etat with which Putin and Russia had absolutely nothing to do. We are backing the wrong horse (AGAIN!) and just like the Mujahideen, purely out of Russo-phobia.
New My link? (sigh)
Your link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation

The main article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution#Removal_of_Yanukovych

Removal of Yanukovych[edit]

On 21 February President Yanukovych and the Parliament declared 22 and 23 February to be new days of mourning "Due to the loss of human life as a result of mass disturbances".[248]

In Parliament, Speaker Volodymyr Rybak submitted his resignation, citing alleged illness.[249] Yanukovych's whereabouts were unknown despite media reports he had flown to Kharkiv. Oleksandr Turchynov stated that in fact most of the ministers had disappeared as well as Interior Minister Vitaly Zakharchenko (who is reported to have fled to Belarus[250]) and President Viktor Yanukovych, "The only one legitimate body left is the Verkhovna Rada – so we are here to vote today. The major tasks for today are: to vote for the new speaker, prime minister and interior minister."[209] In the Verkhovna Rada, deputies voted 328:0 (of the 447 deputies)[251] to set the Presidential election date to 25 May.[60][252] The action did not follow the impeachment process as specified by the Constitution of Ukraine (which would have involved formally charging the president with a crime, a review of the charge by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and a three-fourths majority vote – i.e. at least 338 votes in favor – by the Rada); instead, the Verkhovna Rada declared that Yanukovych "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and cited "circumstances of extreme urgency" as the reason for early elections.[253] Oleksandr Turchynov was then voted by parliament Chairman of the Ukrainian Parliament and acting President and Prime Minister of Ukraine.[254][255][256]

Turchynov claimed Viktor Yanukovych had agreed to resign as president, but after consulting with advisers, he disavowed the decision and even a pre-recorded resignation statement.[209] Yanukovych said he would not resign or leave the country, and called decisions by parliament "illegal" and that "The events witnessed by our country and the whole world are an example of a coup d'état," comparing it to the rise of the Nazis to power in Germany in the 1930s.[257]

The Communist Party office in Kiev was looted by unknown masked men armed with batons.[258]


There was a lot of confusion as to what was going on in Ukraine in February. Most constitutions don't have a list of procedures listed for when a president flees the country...

Yanukovich took the actions he did WRT the EU association agreement as a direct result of pressure from Putin -
Mr Yanukovych, who attended an EU summit in Lithuania on Friday cited pressure from Russia for his decision.
.

Putin has had his fingers in Ukraine's internal affairs for a long time. Wake up, please. :-)

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Eh, wiki's not authoritative anyway. ;0)
I'm not Gerald Ford. I won't say the Ukraine is free from Russian influence. But the fact remains that had not the Neo-Nazis created a violent atmosphere in Kiev, events should have, could have and would have turned out much differently. And let's be clear, the West was pushing for Ukraine to enter NATO. We have consistently broken our promises to Russia and brought NATO all the way to her borders. We are the aggressors and have always been. Nukes in Turkey pointed at Moscow are okay but retaliatory nukes in Cuba? WE MUST LAUNCH ON THE GODLESS COMMUNISTS IMMEDIATELY! I've little doubt that the West will get their way - we always do. Putin, like Kruschev before him, is a vastly superior world citizen than Merkel, Cameron or Obama. For the sake of world peace, Kruschev was willing to leave Moscow open to a nuclear attack to which he could not respond. Similarly, for the sake of world peace, Putin will have to lose the Ukraine and endure being surrounded by hostile forces. That's the way we roll in the West. That may well bring an end to the cult of personality surrounding Putin. Russians don't like having Nazis or their sympathizers on their western border - that didn't turn out too well for them before. And if Putin's loss of the Ukraine costs him all his power at home, then what? This is a dangerous game we're playing.
New Here's q 100 reasons why you're wrong.
Top 100 lies about Ukraine.
To attract reluctant “volunteers” into the trap of a misguided war machine, Russia wages twisted information war through its mainstream media, useful fools in the West and a legion of paid trolls.
So are you a useful fool or paid troll? :)
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New Heh. You'd think Putin's trolls would know about Image Search by now. :-)
New Well, if even you have doubts ...
I should be getting paid! :0)
New :-)
New And I never took you to be a fool! :)
But, I don't think it's for money either. It's for this medal "For Impeccable Service" (Медаль «За безупречную службу»):

Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New Nice colors; look good on my USAF Mess-dress white jacket
(used only as costume, of course.)

I'd troll for one of those :-)
(What's your Price? :-0
New Set of 3 for $20.
eBay.

Zooks!

(It's amazing what one can find there.)

Cheers,
Scott.
New You are Too Much!
Wanna split a trio?

;^>

I rarely get to don that costume avec my leather 12/6 In This Style topper, here in bucolia.

But it worked a treat with Seaborg at the ad hoc celebration of first heavy-ions, so adorned (3 other medals)
Know it worked; his response: Yes, and you're Crazy, right? (Got the pic, too.)
My SO, budding marine biologist, was giddified to greet the Great One--bonus. Lots of bubbly flowed.
(Who says? that science-types ain't got no cuth; don't know how to Par-teee..)
New :-D
New Curses.
You've got me figured! :0)
New I believe that I comprehend your drift (?)
One Can assemble significant utterances (from all multifaceted-sides) to ~support your reasoning here. (I don't count that as stupid, silly--just Murican-S.O.P.)
Whether taking-on: Grenada, Cuba, Panama, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Libya, [or any religio-factions anywhere in the world!] To Date:
Where? Ever? has U.S. intrusion into Any of those ever proved to have accomplished a long-term aka Viable-thus valuable Plan, thence effectively carried out to fruition?

I believe that's the (wordy) relevance of the little Logic-essay(s) referenced. Why would any of us suppose that "U.S. Policy" re Russia/Putin/et al would?/Could! be exceptional to this huge, historic record of Pax-cluelessness-Americana.
(cf. all references to Murican Exceptionalism for the accompanying laugh-track.)
Are 'we' not the very Icon of sanctimonious-while-incompetent Empire construction? W.T.F. did you expect "we would do"?

And Yes: IF.. some shooting war does devolve from current sabre-rattling: is that not the entirely expectable outcome? as via any other rogue-Empire with more weapons (than the Sum of the world's current armed-and-dangerous.)


Are we not, in fact: incorrigible? Does that not follow-from an ingrained attitude of Certainty about our opinions, as automatically colors all rebuttals Wrong?
     5 Western fallacies on the Ukraine and a peaceful way out. - (mmoffitt) - (35)
         Something, something, excluded middle? -NT - (Another Scott) - (34)
             Huh? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (32)
                 Re: Huh? - (Another Scott) - (31)
                     Excellent al punte! Also too: - (Ashton)
                     I say again, Huh? - (mmoffitt) - (29)
                         You seem to be intentionally obtuse and blind here. - (folkert)
                         It's an interesting article on an important topic, but a very poor argument. - (Another Scott) - (27)
                             Amen! -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                             Well put. -NT - (folkert)
                             Let me try to understand. - (mmoffitt) - (24)
                                 just becaue the Ukraine has a history of rw facists - (boxley) - (22)
                                     Thanks. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                     tl;dr - (drook)
                                     I didn't mean to suggest all Ukrainians are Nazis. I have firsthand better than that. - (mmoffitt) - (19)
                                         recently resigned head of new russia was a russian citizen - (boxley)
                                         "Our guys"? - (Another Scott) - (17)
                                             I wouldn't believe anything coming from Kiev. - (mmoffitt) - (16)
                                                 That's been clear from the beginning. (sigh). - (Another Scott) - (15)
                                                     Crimea and Eastern Ukraine are different subjects. And it isn't just a "Kremlin line". - (mmoffitt) - (14)
                                                         No they're not. It's the same thing. - (Another Scott) - (13)
                                                             Did you read your link? - (mmoffitt) - (12)
                                                                 My link? (sigh) - (Another Scott) - (11)
                                                                     Eh, wiki's not authoritative anyway. ;0) - (mmoffitt) - (10)
                                                                         Here's q 100 reasons why you're wrong. - (a6l6e6x) - (9)
                                                                             Heh. You'd think Putin's trolls would know about Image Search by now. :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                             Well, if even you have doubts ... - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                                                                 :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                 And I never took you to be a fool! :) - (a6l6e6x) - (5)
                                                                                     Nice colors; look good on my USAF Mess-dress white jacket - (Ashton) - (3)
                                                                                         Set of 3 for $20. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                                                             You are Too Much! - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                 :-D -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                     Curses. - (mmoffitt)
                                 I believe that I comprehend your drift (?) - (Ashton)
             Not to mention utter BS! - (a6l6e6x)

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