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New My issue is tony's
I like dynamic programming techniques.

.NET doesn't (from what I have read) seem very kind to that. Will I be able to transparently call across the CLR to a class that was autocreated on demand? Somehow I doubt it.

I am also watching to see how the [link|http://www.parrotcode.org/|Parrot] project does. You can think of it as a similar idea to the CLR except targeted at dynamic scripting languages. (Its performance on static ones will be worse. Initial toy benchmarks suggest that it will let the dynamic ones run much faster than they currently do though.)

Cheers,
Ben
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
New Ditto
David Simmons has been banging around the Smalltalk world producing very clever stuff (although he totally lacks any sense of business as far as I can tell - too easily distracted by tasty hacks). Nonetheless, he has done a scripting language called SmallScript that lives on top of .NET as well as on his own VM (which he calls the Agents Objects System AOS).

A couple quotes from him on his .NET implementation experience are:

[link|http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/33895|http://blade.nagaok...y-talk/33895]

[link|http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2002-February/009189.html|http://lists.squeak.../009189.html]

So its not awful - but its not great either. It *is* better than the jvm.
The average hunter gatherer works 20 hours a week.
The average farmer works 40 hours a week.
The average programmer works 60 hours a week.
What the hell are we thinking?
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:30:31 AM EDT
New Dynamic languages and the CLR
[link|http://www.javalobby.org/pdf/clr.pdf|CLR Cross Language shortcomings] this article contains rebuttal comments from the Microsoft Program Manager for the CLR, so the article is quite balanced. At the end there is a page relating specifically to Eiffel.

The bottom line is that even Microsoft [link|http://research.microsoft.com/~emeijer/Papers/CLR.pdf|admit] "It would be unfair to state that the CLI as it is now, is already the perfect multi-language platform. It currently has good support for imperative (COBOL, C, Pascal, Fortran) and statically typed OO languages (such as C#, Eiffel, Oberon, Component Pascal). Microsoft continues to work with language implementers and researchers to improve support for languages in nonstandard paradigms"

It is clear that dynamic languages will suffer under .NET.

One last quote from the article regarding Python "ActiveState reported their experience implementing Python for .NET (with funding and help from Microsoft): [link|http://www.activestate.com/Initiatives/NET/Research.html|http://www.activest...esearch.html]. The paper even reveals some cross-languages problems that I wasn t aware. They conclude the project was a success because they could get Python working on .NET; but this is with severe problems of interoperability and performance. The speed of the current system is so low as to render the current implementation useless for anything beyond demonstration purposes. Some issues are related to the immaturity of the current Python for .NET system, but many others are limitations of the CLR. Of course, Python is not a close relative to C#. This might change, as ActiveState mentions the possibility to introduce changes such as static type declarations I sincerely hope this is not the first step to make Python yet another C# skin ."
Expand Edited by bluke May 20, 2002, 10:25:05 AM EDT
New Static languages...
Just for reference, there's a [link|http://www2.fit.qut.edu.au/CompSci/PLAS//ComponentPascal/virtual_machines.pdf|Comparison of VM's] from the Gardens Point Component Pascal group which tried to implement them in both JVM and CLI. (Granted that Object Pascal is about as static as they come, but the article may still be of interest).
New Thank you all
Between the 3 of you, you did give some evidence that Microsoft at least has worried about dynamic languages (even if it thinks they should be second class citizens).

However I am going to wait to see if their promises of doing something about it, or the reality of languages that try to use it, pan out. You see I have a little trust issue that stuff from Redmond doesn't tend to work properly, and the desires of anyone other than their steamroller get ignored...

Cheers,
Ben
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
     Bertrand Meyer on supporting Eiffel in dot-nyet - (tonytib) - (17)
         ..and a great big *da!* on *.nyet*, Tovarisch!____[cackle] -NT - (Ashton)
         Re: Bertrand Meyer on supporting Eiffel in dot-nyet - (dshellman) - (12)
             I am curious about the second article though - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                 CLR is Turing Complete - (tablizer) - (2)
                     That wasn't my point - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                         And because C# is so oriented towards strong typing, etc - (tonytib)
                 Re: I am curious about the second article though - (dshellman) - (5)
                     My issue is tony's - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                         Ditto - (tuberculosis)
                         Dynamic languages and the CLR - (bluke) - (2)
                             Static languages... - (ChrisR)
                             Thank you all - (ben_tilly)
             Yeah, don't think much of Bertie's work - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                 Some people like that stuff (like maybe CRC) -NT - (tablizer)
         dot-nyet : I've been waiting for it :) -NT - (Arkadiy)
         II - Achieving Interoperatibility - (ChrisR) - (1)
             Interesting - (ben_tilly)

The Elvish prince was so powerful and legendary that his first name alone contained over twenty apostrophes.
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