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New Public safety? What's that?
http://www.firehouse...-house-burn-again

The South Fulton Fire Department made national news last year after they refused to put out a house fire due to an unpaid fire subscription fee, and it appears that policy has not changed.

Homeowner Vicky Bell watched her home burn to the ground on Monday while firefighters stood behind her looking on, according to WPSD-TV.

While the city provides fire service free of charge to its residents, it requires an annual $75 fee for homeowners who live in unincorporated areas of Obion County -- which doesn't have its own fire department.

[...]


Idiotic policy. :-/

[edit:] Via Balloon-Juice.

Cheers,
Scott.
Expand Edited by Another Scott Dec. 6, 2011, 08:36:04 PM EST
New eh? you wreck your car without insurance and we pay for it?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
New Not the same.
They let the house burn for want of a fixed $75 fee, not a payout of unspecified size.

Petty minded, officious cunts.

It's people like that who often benefit enormously from a vigorous kick in the bollocks.
New And what about the neighbors?
Fire fighting is a public good as well as an individual service.

If I'm paid up and my house burns down because they let my neighbor's house burn, the Randroids will be hearing from me, and my politeness will be sub-optimal.

Personal responsibility is good for some things, not for others.

Perhaps a story is in order. A true one, as it happens. It isn't a direct analogy, but it illustrates how Personal Responsibility on the part of the masses may not be the answer.

I used to work for an otherwise excellent company. It was a tiny, prized gem belonging to a megacorp, and a couple of times a year the big-shots would come around and talk to us. There would be a big off-site meeting, mandatory for everybody. There were never enough chairs. The big-shots didn't like people standing for the meeting. So we would all be warned to show up early so as not to be one of those standing in the back. After several of these meetings, me and my close colleagues were showing up (with the blessing of our managers) two or more hours ahead of time just to hold our seats. My manager was happy that my colleagues and I were taking personal responsibility and not being the problem. It was a huge expense - my colleagues and I were on the clock, and our time was not cheap. Yet there were still people standing. The big-shots were still pissed off. And the person responsible for renting the room (who once gave me a copy of Atlas Shrugged - I am NOT making this up) kept talking about Personal Responsibility. She never did seem to get it that if you rent fewer chairs than there are people, it doesn't matter how early people show up, there will be people standing.
---------------------------------------
Badass! (and delicious)
New Plenty of jurisdictions around here charge for ambulances.
E.g. http://www.fairfaxva...urancebilling.asp

South Fulton could do the same thing for county residents who need their fire service - charge a $75 (or whatever) fee.

After they put the fire out.

This stuff isn't hard. Some right-wing idiots in local governments apparently decided that they want to let ideology get in the way of being sensible in solving a problem.

Cheers,
Scott.
New oh, you mean like watching a kid drown because
of workplace rules? Right wing idiots indeed
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
New ?
--

Drew
New Peter knows exactly what I mean
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
New Re: Peter knows exactly what I mean
That was completely different, too.

Two PCSOs (police community support officers) didn't go into a pond where someone said a child had gone in. So: untrained in water operations, no direct knowledge of child in water, unfamiliar body of water. They called the experts.

And the police divers turned up, retrieved the body, and said that they'd done the right thing, because if anyone had gone in after said child, it would simply have added to the number of bodies the divers pulled out of the water.

But the UK tabloid press, torrent of misinformed shit that it is, had a field day with it.
New No... it wasn't completely different...
In Boxley's eyes.

He read it and will *still* remember it the way he is already.
New No, I don't mean that. What made you think so?
New That's a very Ankh-Morpork type situation.
Static Scribblings http://staticsan.blogspot.com/
New Actually I might be the only person to disagree
I support this policy.

(In fact, just defended this afternoon at lunch to a hard core libertarian.)

The city can't tax those outside of the jurisdiction -- so they offer the service. There doesn't seem to be any accounting from the country level.

If these things had mortgages, the mortgage company would demand that the fee be paid. (So I'm assuming that there isn't a mortgage company). That leaves the home owner.

These things aren't expensive (if they're paid off), and after they've been destroyed (and, imo, any fire will destroy them), I'm willing to be that it's difficult to impossible to get any funds out of the homeowner.

The real question is what kind of world do we want to live in.

Are we okay with houses being burned to the ground?

Are we okay with charred empty shells just sitting there?

Who is going to be who is responsible when the fire chief decides not to fight the fire and they discover a body in the ruins?
New you're not
after this I fully expect them to decide it's not worth even offering to cover the people outside of their jurisdiction.
New On the other hand...
You make some good points. I don't think they outweigh the stupidity of the actions in letting the houses burn in these 2 cases though.

A counterpoint, written after the first fire.

http://www.firehouse...de-should-we-take

[...]

Over time, the fire protection trends in our nation moved away from the concept of having insurance companies provide our fire protection. However, did you know that as recently as a couple of years ago, the insurance industry in New York City still provided a Fire Patrol to assist the New York City Fire Department in the salvage and overhaul duties of their operations in the mercantile districts of lower Manhattan? They were taken out of service just a short time ago. Never lose sight of the fact that one member of the Fire Patrol, Keith Roma, was killed along with the 343 members of the New York Department on 9/11.

At some point in history, we became accustomed to having a volunteer organization, or some form of government provide our communities with fire protection and suppression services. There really is no definitive point in time at which I can point to say it all started there. Perhaps it is because of the many different ways in which fire protection evolved in America that I really cannot set up a series of solid points of reference.

However, let me suggest to you that all of these various means of providing fire protection had one major thing in common. Dedicated people came together to protect their communities from the devastation, disruption, and destruction which fire can visit upon a community. I really believe that fire protection is a bit too important to be provided to communities in the 21st Century in a manner seemingly more appropriately designed for subscribing to a magazine or a newspaper.

What I can never countenance is the thought of firefighters standing around doing nothing. I am offended that people such as these are allowed to wear the same gear and be looked upon as members of the same fire service as my fellow firefighters in Adelphia and Newark, NJ. I worry that people will think that we are all like those people who only sprung into action when the fire jumped to the home of someone who paid their subscription fee.

Let me also tell you another person who really angered me with the stupidity of their interview comments. He is Jeff Vowell, the city manager for South Fulton, TN. In defense of the actions of his fire department, he stated that, "...we have to follow the rules and the ordinances set forth to us, and that's exactly what we do." According to press reports, this process has been in effect for more than 20 years in South Fulton.

Do not think that you or I will get any support from the organizations which represent various levels of government in our nation. A great example of this comes from Jacqueline Byers with the National Association of Counties. In an article on ABC News.com she states that, "If the city starts fighting fires in the homes of people outside the city who don't pay, why would anyone pay?" Talk about a govern-style bean counter.

My friends, it is all about money. All I hear in my community is a hue and cry for lower taxes. But when asked if they want more services, people can always be counted upon to say, "...heck yes..." It just doesn't work that way. If you want, you pay. If I want gasoline for my car, I pay the guy at the gas station. If I want to fly to Indianapolis for the Fire Department Instructor's Conference, I pay Continental Airlines, and the list goes on and on.

It is really simple. If you want fire protection, you pay for it. You pay taxes, you attend roast beef dinners or pancake breakfasts; or you buy a Christmas tree from that group of guys and gals out there in the cold December weather. Let me assure you, however, that the days of providing fire protection with pancakes and potluck suppers is long past.

Ladies and gentlemen, my fire district is buying a new pumper and we are about to lay out $602,000 for it. How many pancake meals do you have to sell at $7 per person to buy such a vehicle? I did the math gang and it comes to 86,000 people buying one meal each. Our whole township only has 60,000 people and most of them do not come to us for breakfast at our twice-a-year event.

There is another question which might be asked. Do we need a new pumper? You bet your ass we do. I was not the one who invited the people who live in the 3,000-plus units of housing which were built within one mile of my 125-year-old home to come to Fire District #2 in Howell Township, NJ. However, I am chairman of the board of that same district and we have been given the responsibility by the voters of the area to do just that. So we do.

Time and again I keep hearing the phrase, "tax-strapped taxpayers." Heck, I pay taxes and probably a lot more than those people do down in Tennessee. I pay nearly $6,000 in property taxes and thank my lucky stars that I am paying a lot less than many of my buddies in the Adelphia Fire Company. What good is government if it fails to fulfill the sole reason for its existence? What is that sole reason for government's existence, you might ask? Plain and simple my friends, government exists to serve the people, but it cannot do the job without money.

[...]

People have to make some serious decisions about their local fire departments. Far too many cities, towns, townships, villages, cities, and fire districts are nickel and diming their fire departments out of existence. Fire departments have been subject to severe cuts by unknowing and uncaring pencil-necked geek business administrators that are rendering them unable to provide even the most basic services which the public has come to expect.

I have written about the problems of Lawrence, MA, Keokuk, IA, and an unknown number of other fire departments where the decisions of people who can't tell a fire truck from a cement mixer are making decisions which put their communities at risk. People had best wake up.

[...]

Let me suggest that the debacle in Tennessee is just the latest in a growing list of mistakes which are happening because of the fact that citizens in America want more service, but are unwilling to pay more in taxes for it. Somebody had best "man up" on this issue, or we are going to see more buildings burn to the ground in places with understaffed and improperly funded fire departments.

Let me suggest that these are just a couple of thoughts from a guy who has been to a fire or two. And by the way, I am on the side of those who believe that the citizen deserves the best fire protection possible: Not just what the cheapskates, bean-counters, and pencil-necked geeks think we should have. We need to devote some solid research into how best to fund fire departments in this dumb-assed economic climate we all hear so much about. I'm just saying..."

HARRY R. CARTER, Ph.D., CFO, MIFireE, a Firehouse.com Contributing Editor, is a municipal fire protection consultant based in Adelphia, NJ. Dr. Carter retired from the Newark, NJ, Fire Department and is a past chief and active life member of the Adelphia Fire Company. Follow Harry on his "A View From my Front Porch" blog. He recently published Leadership: A View from the Trenches and Living My Dream: Dr. Harry Carter's 2006 FIRE Act Road Trip. You can reach Harry by e-mail at drharrycarter@optonline.net.


(Emphasis added.)

Well said.

If the county voters refuse to pay for the service via taxes, the sensible policy is for the department them to bill the residents after the response, at a penalty rate if the homeowner hasn't paid their subscription fee. (I'm sure there's a way for them to write legislation for that.)

Drum's take after the first fire - http://motherjones.c...ting-obion-county

Yes, fire protection needs to be paid for. It should be paid for by taxes in Obion County (or in the state of Tennessee generally) in this case. But the way they are punishing people in the midst of a tragedy is stupid and wrong. They could bill the unfortunate people afterward, the way the good folks in New Castle, IN do - http://abcnews.go.co...6696#.TuH8v0rEOHk

It came in the mail less than a month after Darline Fairchild watched her family's home go up in flames -- a bill for the nearly $28,000 it cost the fire department to extinguish the blaze.

"I felt my body turn cold and I just broke out into a sweat," Fairchild told ABCNews.com. "It was awful. I said, 'It's got to be a mistake.'"

But it wasn't a mistake. The Fairchilds, of New Castle, Ind., were just one of a growing number of fire and accident victims across the country who are being billed for fire department services once funded solely through taxpayer money.

Already banned in several states, the practice of charging to respond to house fires and car accidents -- dubbed a "crash tax" or an "accident tax" -- has horrified victims and earned the ire of insurance lobbyists who say their member companies are being targeted to make up for budget shortfalls.

"Part of the sales tactic when municipalities consider this is, 'Hey, don't worry, it's going to go to insurance,'" Jon Zarich, director of government affairs for the Insurance Institute of Indiana, told ABCNews.com. "But it's the homeowner that's responsible once coverage runs out."

The Fairchilds' bill for $27,989.12 was itemized with hourly rates for the use of fire trucks, hoses and the firefighters' time, even a case of drinking water for firefighters who got thirsty. The total for five hours of fire personnel on the scene totaled more than $8,500. The use of the fire trucks cost more than $12,300.


Happy Holidays! :-/

Cheers,
Scott.
New put the fire out
Then invoice them for the cost if they haven't paid the fee.
New more info
in the comments from somebody apparently in the area:
http://thinkprogress...family-home-burn/

Okay, fine, here's the deal: for over 20 years, the County of Obion has tried to solve this problem. Three times there was vote for a fire levy for the county to provide fire protection for rural residents and 3 times the rural residents voted it down. So the city of South Fulton stepped up, pretty much out of the kindness of their hearts, and volunteered to cover what area they could with their own fire protection service (which is paid for by the taxes of the city of South Fulton - not a dime of a rural Obion resident contributes to it) for a very modest fee, much less than the levy the residents had voted on repeatedly.... They cannot cover as much as they would in the city - in the rural areas there are no fire hydrants or other ways to pump water with pressure, so basically they have to bring whatever water they can with them.
...
South Fulton even takes the time to send a notice every year to remind you your fire levy is due. The gentleman whose house burned last year, Mr Crannick, got his yearly notice, 3 reminder letters, and 3 reminders phone calls over a period of 9 months. To each reminder he promised to pay the $75. He never did.
New Re: more info
Doesn't change a thing. They let his house burn down for $75.

The chiselling, grasping shits.

Just lucky there was no-one in the house, I suppose.

I liked this comment:

"Oh yeah, we're a Christian nation alright. Well, except for all that New Testament hippie crap, obviously."
New Maybe not to you
Ding Dong!

Hi there neighbor. Would you like to share my
lovely fire service with me? It cost me a few
million dollars, it has lots of people and shiny
parts, and you might want it to save your house
or life some day.

How much?

Well, we've already got a lot of sunk costs into it,
and our main base of customers are "captive", and we
are paid for, so while it may cost us hundreds per
year per house we serve, we'll cut you a break, and
charge you a MEASLY $75. Even though we have to travel
farther to get to you and every call will cost us
more than the norm.

Nah, don't want.

You sure? This is a TINY price to pay compared
to the service we are providing. If you have a
fire, it can end up costing many thousands
of dollars per hour for some type of fire
response.

Yup, I'm sure. $75 is too much for me. I'd rather
throw the dice.


If you don't pay, we are NOT going to send our pretty
toys and people to save your property or even
possibly your life. If we do show up, it'll be to
hang around and make sure the fire does not jump to
your neighbor's property who has chosen to engage
our service. As a matter of fact, our insurance company
PROHIBITS us from entering the burning property of a
non-customer, so we are well trained to ignore it.
We cannot risk the multi-million dollar lawsuit when
someone sues us for screwing up a "save". We will NOT
help you at all in that situation. Are you SURE you
do not want to pay the $75?

Sure, I'm sure. Now you sound like you are extorting me!
Screw you jack, you ain't getting any money out of me.
F'off.


SLAM!!

Lather rinse repeat this conversation MANY times over
MANY years over MANY people.

You ever run into a burning building for someone who told
you to f'off? Doubt it.
New Re: Maybe not to you
Just invoice the homeowner if the $75 is all that important.

Having private insurance for things that are better off being public services is ridiculous anyway.

Worked example: American healthcare system.
New No
Doesn't work that way.
If it was ONLY $75 after the fact, then NO ONE would pay.
$75 before, $20,000 or more after.
New Pretty much agreed.
Also, who gets billed? The resident or the homeowner? News stories seem to conflate the two. If the owner is billed but the person living there is renting, then...? And vice versa?

Also too: http://rt.com/usa/ne...ay-fire-bell-299/

In a nearby town, Gene Cranick lost his home in a fire last October and says he just forgot to pay his insurance. He begged firemen and offered them money to put out the blaze to no avail while they sat by and watched. He lost four pets and his home in the blaze. In the adjacent community of Blount County, such spontaneous coverage can be purchase if an annual fee of $110 doesn’t seem reasonable. In lieu of the subscription, people there can pay $2,200 for the first two hours that firefighters are on the scene if they forfeit the annual fee.

[...]

Fire Chief Doug McClanahan of Blount County says his own department has revised their policy after that incident in Obion. “Having subscribers is a good thing, but to punish people to the point that you don’t do anything for them is wrong,” he tells The Daily Times.


There are several ways the towns can cover their costs from adjacent jurisdictions. This Galtian 'pay first or burn' policy of South Fulton TN is stupid and needs to be changed.

Cheers,
Scott.
     Public safety? What's that? - (Another Scott) - (21)
         eh? you wreck your car without insurance and we pay for it? -NT - (boxley) - (9)
             Not the same. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                 And what about the neighbors? - (mhuber)
             Plenty of jurisdictions around here charge for ambulances. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                 oh, you mean like watching a kid drown because - (boxley) - (5)
                     ? -NT - (drook) - (3)
                         Peter knows exactly what I mean -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                             Re: Peter knows exactly what I mean - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                 No... it wasn't completely different... - (folkert)
                     No, I don't mean that. What made you think so? -NT - (Another Scott)
         That's a very Ankh-Morpork type situation. -NT - (static)
         Actually I might be the only person to disagree - (S1mon_Jester) - (3)
             you're not - (SpiceWare)
             On the other hand... - (Another Scott)
             put the fire out - (Steve Lowe)
         more info - (SpiceWare) - (5)
             Re: more info - (pwhysall) - (4)
                 Maybe not to you - (crazy) - (2)
                     Re: Maybe not to you - (pwhysall) - (1)
                         No - (crazy)
                 Pretty much agreed. - (Another Scott)

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