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New How does HTML/HTTP work?
Dumb question, I know, but I've got a developer insisting it works other than how I know it does.

Server environment is Windows/C#/.NET

There are methods in the "codebehind" -- I've only ever heard that term used for Windows servers -- that are not sent as javascript. So when you click a button, the browser does not have the code that will be executed. Which is exactly as I would expect.

What this guy is saying is that a screen scraper can not manipulate this web app, because the scraper does not know what code is being executed on the server.

My understanding of HTML is that the browser has to send messages via HTTP, and that the target and all parameters passed can be determined by examining the HTML/javascript that's in the browser.

I suspect this is partially a terminology mismatch and he's not understanding what I'm saying. But he insists that you can write a site in .NET and hide all the functionality in the codebehind, so that the browser interaction can not be automated because the browser doesn't know what's being done on the back end.

Am I correct to think this guy comes from a Windows desktop background and doesn't understand the fundamentals of HTML/HTTP? Or has Microsoft somehow managed to create a system that works with other browsers without sending any information to the browser about what it needs to do?
--

Drew
New Off the top of my head...
HTTP requires a it handle GET and POST operations (and HEAD, but that's another story) and returns graphics and test back (and either 200/404/etc)

You could just ask him what page he had "protected" and do a wget on it.

(Strictly speaking, he can make screen scraping very difficult. Humans can handle data being displayed different ways and can ignore it. Screen Scrapers depend on the data being presented consistently)
New Unless it's Javascript or Flash or Silverlight or similar...
HTML applications query the server with text and get their responses as text (sometimes gzipped, but text nonetheless).

It is precisely because all of the work is done on the server that something like this can be scraped.

I suspect he doesn't quite understand how all the things work. Download a copy of Selenium and demonstrate to him exactly how things can be automated.

Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New Ooh, Selenium looks nice, thanks for the tip
--

Drew
New Frustration
It's almost working, but it's choking on selecting nested frames within a popup window. I can't figure out a way to refer to the right element. Going home now, I'll look at it with fresh eyes tomorrow.
--

Drew
New Re: How does HTML/HTTP work?

There are methods in the "codebehind" -- I've only ever heard that term used for Windows servers -- that are not sent as javascript. So when you click a button, the browser does not have the code that will be executed. Which is exactly as I would expect.



"Code Behind" is just that - code that resides in a separate file that provides the functionality for a web page. Back in ancient times, you had (now called "classic") ASP pages that had the code and HTML all in a .asp file. MS changed that in the .Net framework so you could have code in a separate file outside of your page formatting, whether you had .aspx controls, HTML controls, or a mixture of both. Makes debugging exponentially easier.

Javascript: you can still have Javascript code embedded in your .aspx web pages, or you can have a 1 line Javascript subroutine call a Javascript subroutine or function stored in a separate library file containing all of your Javascript code. The choice is yours.





"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from."

-- E.L. Doctorow
New He is in "app mode".
I've seen this thinking in .NET developers before and the developer tools encourage it. Quite how it does the HTML/HTTP is hidden inside the framework and server libraries and a lot of functionality "just happens". It is just like developing and debugging a local application. Small wonder he doesn't get it.

Your understanding is correct.

Wade.
Static Scribblings http://staticsan.blogspot.com/
     How does HTML/HTTP work? - (drook) - (6)
         Off the top of my head... - (S1mon_Jester)
         Unless it's Javascript or Flash or Silverlight or similar... - (malraux) - (2)
             Ooh, Selenium looks nice, thanks for the tip -NT - (drook) - (1)
                 Frustration - (drook)
         Re: How does HTML/HTTP work? - (lincoln)
         He is in "app mode". - (static)

This is why I am in therapy.
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