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New RAID question
A friend of mine has a Dell server (windows 2003 if it matters) and 4 160GB SATA disks in a RAID0 controller (RAID0 is from reading the packing slip). He is under the impression that they are mirrored. I thought that RAID0 had no redundancy and therefore no mirroring. Is there any way to mirror a RAID0 controller? He has an add-in controller. Could they be set up to mirror? I tried googling the part number (GP327) and the item number (341-6883) from the packing slip and could find nothing on the controller.
He is intending to increase drive size by removing 160GB disks, one at a time, and replacing them with hot swap 1TB drives. I'm having my doubts and am trying to get him to back everything up with redundancy. I figure worst case, he can replace all disks, reformat, and reload from backup.
Anybody have any experience with something like this?

Thanks,
Hugh
New Re: RAID question
How much disk space does he have? If he has 640GB... he has NO redundancy. If he has 320GB he has RAID0+mirroring. Which means two RAID0 arrays mirrored to each other. If he replaces one drive at a time he might as well replace both drives in a raid0 array as they will have to be rebuilt and initialized period. He will be VERY vulnerable during the rebuild as its going to stress the good set and the sheer time involved while the machine is running... scary.

BACKUPS are a must!

From WikiPedia (yeah I know its not god ...but its a good starting point)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID-0

A RAID 0 (also known as a stripe set or striped volume) splits data evenly across two or more disks (striped) with no parity information for redundancy. RAID 0 was not one of the original RAID levels and provides no data redundancy. RAID 0 is normally used to increase performance, although it can also be used as a way to create a small number of large virtual disks out of a large number of small physical ones.

Reliability SUCKS on RAID0.

There is *ZERO* parity.

Pulling out 160GB disks and putting in 1TB disks... only works on real raid controllers that can back fill once all the drives are the same size. And then if NTFS can handle the larger size with the original block size set on the initial format...

I think it would be better to just get a 2TB external drive and backup everything there... then rebuild the machine with proper RAID using the 1TB drives. Doing a 3 drive RAID5 + 1 hot spare *OR* make two mirrored arrays of 1TB drives each, then RAID0 them together.

Since he won't be me... he is likely to have better luck.

The best way to make RAID0 arrays is to make redundant arrays first and the make the RAID 0 setup. I still think he is nuts for no backups.
New Disk space and sizing
He has 4 160GB SATA drives installed. They show up as 2 160GB drives on Windows Server 2003. I gather that you are saying that since I can only see half the installed drives that it is doing mirroring. If I pulled all 4 drives and replaced them with 1 TB drives, should I have 2 1TB mirrored drives? Is there something on Windows server that allows me to look at the controller configuration or is this a plug and play sort of setup? I was thinking that I could clone his disks to another networked machine and switch all the disks, then clone back to the original.
I've been trying to find information on the Dell website about the controller but it doesn't have anything for the description, part number or item number. I have a copy of his packing slip for the numbers. The controller is described as Item Number 341-6883 Add-In SAS 6/iR (SATA/SAS Controller)- RAID0, Supports 2-4 Hot Plug Hard Drives Part Number GP327. I can't find any info on that particular part whatsoever. Googling for SAS 6/iR gets me a pdf from Dell that indicates the SAS 6/iR family supports both RAID0 and RAID1. I guess I've got to go back and see if I can find a utility to check the controller. If he's got the smaller disks mirrored, he HAS to be in RAID1, right?
I've got him backing up daily to a removable drive so his data is safe. Of course we haven't tried to restore from the backups so it's not THAT safe...
New RAID 0 is striping. No fault tolerance.
http://www.acnc.com/raid.html is a nice page on the various RAID levels +/-, etc.

RAID 1 is mirroring/duplexing and some fault tolerance.

The Dell server should almost certainly be able to mirror, but I dunno what would be required (presumably for safety-sake one would want a full backup first).

He is intending to increase drive size by removing 160GB disks, one at a time, and replacing them with hot swap 1TB drives. I'm having my doubts and am trying to get him to back everything up with redundancy. I figure worst case, he can replace all disks, reformat, and reload from backup.


I think you're right to be worried. There's a chance that the BIOS/Windows SP level may not understand 1TB disks. There is a 128 GB (48-bit LBA) barrier, which Win2k3 presumably crosses given the 160GB drives, but there may be issues with the larger drives as well. Don't assume everything is just plug-and-play with something critical like this.

MS on RAID 0 on Win2k3 - http://support.microsoft.com/kb/323433 Note that the drives are "Dynamic Disks". These are different from standard "Basic" partitions that you can transfer easily between machines, etc. The hardware RAID via the controller may have different capabilities.

Troubleshooting

* Do not mix hardware RAID 0 with software RAID 0.
* A striped volume cannot hold the system or boot partition of a Windows Server 2003-based system.
* You cannot extend or mirror striped volumes.
* There is no fault tolerance on a striped volume. This means that if one of the disks becomes damaged or no longer functions properly, the whole volume is lost.


It may ultimately be faster to do a full backup, install the new drives, build the desired array, then restore the backup than to have the RAID rebuild via sequential installation of new drives (which the MS link seems to say is not possible anyway. However, the add-on controller may be able to do it). (Rebuilding stripes with separate parity drives can take forever, IIRC.)

But, I'm no expert - just passing along stuff I've read.

HTH. Good luck!

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who is probably going to order one of these in a few weeks - http://www.amazon.co...8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER - and make a RAID 5 array with 4 ea 1.5 TB drives.)
New Ask the controller
It should have a trigger key at some point in the POST sequence. That is about the only certain way to figure out how the array is really configured.

If it really is RAID0, then pulling any drive will most likely kill the server right there as OS files and swap space are spread across all disks.

One possible experiment is to clone the contents to a 1TB disk and resize the filesystem there. Then replace all disks, build the RAID 1 or 1+0 array and restore the image.
New Adding mirroring; maybe.
It can theoretically be done without re-installing W2k3, but it depends if the controller lets you. And, this being Dell hardware and a Windows install, if the drivers let you. (The controller can do all the RAID itself, leaving the OS none the wiser, but IIRC the official drivers tell Windows all about and Windows wants to put its paws in the mix. Theoretically, this is so you can use a Window app to alter RAID parameters without rebooting.)

Being a Dell RAID controller, in its BIOS, you might be able to extend the existing RAID arrangement. If it lets you do so without destroying the existing RAID, it will be a scary process because you will probably need to remove the RAID config and set it up again similarly, but with mirroring to the new disks. However, it might not like the fact the new disks are larger.

Oh, and the controller really is a "add-on". Dell can sell you most of its RAID-capable servers without RAID capability. In some of them, it is a card in special slot.

Wade.

Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers?
A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
New OK, I'm going to chime in.
Having dealt with RAID arrays for more than 20 years (mostly SCSI, but recently some SATA) I'll say this. They are cranky as hell. There is no way I'd try any modification except a totally fresh install with all identical drives (and I maintain spare drives for my better clients (the ones that pay their bills)). I just plain wouldn't try anything else. RAID arrays are trouble enough under the very best circumstances.

Now be aware my experience is not in "enterprise" systems, but in critical small business environments (medical and wholesale distribution), running mostly Unix and Linux, but also some Windows Servers.

RAID1 (mirror) is what I've used in most cases, because my client's needs fit well within the capacity of drives available, but software firms I work with sometimes send me RAID5 configurations (hopefully with a hot spare) to set up.

Those are the only two RAID configurations I'd want to deal with.

The big problem is RAID controllers. They fail about as often as the hard disks - and the one you have installed is obsolete and no longer sold, but hopefully you can find one on eBay, because otherwise YOUR DATA IS LOST.

I tell folks with RAID controllers they're insane to not buy a backup spare (and I've been told as much by at lest one RAID controller manufacturer) - but of course sitting 5 years on the shelf the chances of your spare actually working are only about 80%.

Now SATA RAID is a bit different because it's "software RAID" even if in the machine's BIOS (but then if you want to be really strict in your logic, so is the RAID provided by the BIOS of a $1,000 SCSI RAID controller) but the purveyors of SATA RAID seem much less serious about their job.

A nice feature of SATA RAID (whether in the MB BIOS or provided by Linux) is that the "dumb as a box of rocks" client is never bothered by a screaming RAID controller - so he doesn't even know he's got a failed array until he has enough drive failures to bring down the whole machine - permanently.

And, by the way, the client SHOULD be "dumb as box of rocks" as far as this stuff is concerned - s/he's supposed to be smart about something else entirely. Unfortunately most are too cheap to have someone constantly monitoring this stuff and planning for the inevitable failure.

Then, of course, there's the problem of simultaneous SATA drive failures, which seem to happen much more often than statistically possible.

And, of course, more commonly than a drive failure, a program has muched its own
data - and written it to the array - so RAID is of no help whatever.

So, all in all, I have to say that RAID is not significantly better than regular (verified**) backups and a RAID failure may take a lot longer to recover from than re-entering a day's data (if you are a major insurance company your experience may vary).

Of course I do have one totally paranoid client (and, by far my most wealthy client - and the one who pays my invoices within 3 days (and has never questioned the amount)). He has a nice stable Debian Linux server with hardware RAID1. Every evening, after closing (they close early) the identical backup server does an NFS mount and copies all the files from the main server. Then certain critical files are automagically backed up to a Zip disk (yes, this system has been running that long), then both servers back up to their DAT4 tape drives, and then when that is all safely done, the main server backs up to an off-line service in the mountains of Colorado. In the morning the president of the company checks the lots to make sure there were no failures. In 20 years we have lost narry a byte.

** And - one last shot - an unverified backup is not a backup. Period. End of discussion.

New +5, Informative.
Really, the only sure RAID array is a backed-up-and-verified one.

The only piece of information you missed is that RAID 6 came about -- RAID 5 with two parity stripes -- because there was an anomaly in the statistical failure rates WRT to partition size that exacerbated secondary failures whilst re-bulding from a disk failure. Which RAID 6 only puts off, not solves. Which is why a decent vendor will recommend a complete rebuild-and-restore from the controller up once a disk has died and been replaced...

Wade.

Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers?
A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
New Can I ask an iggerent question?
Everyone seems to be saying that RAID is fragile, that you can't really rebuild easily, that it may be faster but at the expense of multiple single points of failure ... Why do people use them? Is it just the ability to address multiple physical volumes as a single large one?
--

Drew
New Striping gives faster access, too. More info.
Spreading the read and write access across drives can give substantially higher throughput than that from a single spindle. RAID's a reasonable compromise in many cases, but too many people use it as a substitute for backups. It's not.

RAID5 failures almost guaranteed with multi-TB arrays:
http://www.zdnet.com...rking-in-2009/162

SSD's aren't a panacea, either:
http://www.enterpris...ge-Networking.htm

Google's famous paper on HD reliability:
http://labs.google.c...disk_failures.pdf (13 page .pdf)

Hard drives (and controllers) fail eventually. Gotta have backups.

Cheers,
Scott.
New If the machine still runs . . .
. . though it may be slow, the array will usually rebuild fine when the bad drive is replaced.

Starting the rebuild, though, can be extremely nerve racking. The RAID controller software is often so bad a normal person has no idea if they are about to write an empty disk over their data or write the data to an empty disk. So far I've never gone the wrong way.

If the controller goes bad you may have no data left by time you learn it's the controller.

I remember a big vendor show (remember those? Bags of swag and an excuse why you must be there instead of at work?) a booth by disk recovery firm Rotating Memories. This was back when hard disks were big and clunky - and veeeeeeeeery expensive. They displayed a high capacity drive they were not able to recover - the owner got so frustrated he shot it with a .38 revolver. Of course it turned out the drive had been fine, it was the controller that wasn't working right.
New Sounds like something my father might have done
He's a mechanic, and always hated intermittent problems. He said, "I'd rather the engine block splits in half and falls out, so I can point to it and say, 'That's what I need to fix.'"
--

Drew
New Another question?
What do you guys use to back up windows servers with RAID1? Can you use the result to put the data back on a new set of disks or do you have to reload the OS formating the disks and copy program data back? How do you format new disks if you don't reinstall the OS? Is it practical to use a linux box to mount access the server disks through the network and dd them onto the linux box? Maybe some variation on this? I have access to spare machines although not a spare server for test purposes.

This is an aspect of servers I haven't gotten into before. Fortunately, I don't do this professionally. I'm helping out a friend who has his own business and sometimes uses me to do some application work. I really appreciate the advise. Thanks all.
New As far as the OS is concerned,
an array is a single disk, so any normal backup and restore method should work once you have established the array - though if the array is maintained by the OS, as it usually is in Linux, you have to install the OS to build the array.

The backup shouldn't care if it's backing up to or restoring to an array or to a single disk.

With hardware RAID controllers there is usually an OS specific step in setting up the array, but the array is built before installing the OS so the install sees a single disk.
New If it were me, and I did it for a living...
1) I would have a patched set of Windows install disks with all of the necessary drivers, service packs, etc., constructed that were customized for the machine. There are various sites that tell one how to do this. E.g.:

http://www.ryanvm.ne...datepack-sp2.html for updating XP+SP2 with subsequent fixes.

http://www.tacktech....play.cfm?ttid=295 for most/all MS OSes (but not Vista).

You would use #1 to do a full restore of the OS to a blank drive or blank RAID array, or (with luck), a case when the OS gets corrupted but the rest of the drive/partition is Ok.

2) On most OSes, it's a good idea to separate user data from OS programs and data. Windows makes this nearly impossible to enforce because too many programs (still) want to write to C: and dump things in the WINNT or Windows tree. Rather than fighting it, it's probably best to do a periodic full backup of the Windows partition and incremental backups of user data files. You would use #2 to backup the system in the event that everything was wiped out.

3) There are Linux "rescue" disks that work well, but I don't know if they can read Windows RAID arrays. Presumably if there are BIOS bootstrap drivers for the RAID, then the CD should be able to read them. But you'd want to check. My favorite is SysRescueCD - http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page - but I haven't used it recently.

[edit:] Actually, the last Linux rescue CD I used was http://clonezilla-sysresccd.hellug.gr/ . It seemed at the time (May 2008) to be a better package than just the SRCD or others I looked at. YMMV. [/edit:]

You can use SysRescCD to partition and format a new disk, and it has DD and the like. I don't know what's involved in using it with RAID, especially if the RAID has Windows-only drivers.

Here's a quick thread on installing Win2k3 on a fresh RAID5 on a Dell Server. Not a lot of meat, but it might give you a starting point on what's involved. http://en.community....6/t/17514482.aspx

Possible more useful hits here: http://www.google.co...=83f87efc6f926f13

I haven't done any of this myself, though. ;-) HTH a little. Good luck!

Cheers,
Scott.
Expand Edited by Another Scott Jan. 7, 2011, 07:15:26 PM EST
     RAID question - (hnick) - (14)
         Re: RAID question - (folkert) - (1)
             Disk space and sizing - (hnick)
         RAID 0 is striping. No fault tolerance. - (Another Scott)
         Ask the controller - (scoenye)
         Adding mirroring; maybe. - (static)
         OK, I'm going to chime in. - (Andrew Grygus) - (5)
             +5, Informative. - (static)
             Can I ask an iggerent question? - (drook) - (3)
                 Striping gives faster access, too. More info. - (Another Scott)
                 If the machine still runs . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                     Sounds like something my father might have done - (drook)
         Another question? - (hnick) - (2)
             As far as the OS is concerned, - (Andrew Grygus)
             If it were me, and I did it for a living... - (Another Scott)

She's like a little piece of shrapnel inextricably lodged in the body politic.
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