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New In case anyone's interested
I'm playing with a bunch of Franco-Ontarians here in Kingston, and I jammed with the front line last night. Took a couple of songs, made a video with a still pic, and uploaded it to youtube: http://www.youtube.c...tch?v=SC9iEGuS5u4

Go take a peek if you like.

It was recorded using a custom-compiled FFADO/Jack combo on a Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 (into Firewire, that), and I used pitivi to make the video.

Yep... this is entirely a linux production, all on my (rather overloaded) old Dell laptop. Just as an aside... Drew, if you think processing video sucks, try processing high quality audio sometime.... (24 bit 96KHz).

...not that I should complain; man the world has changed since I made my first recording on 1/4" reel to reel back in 1990.
New I've heard that, but why?
I'm guessing it's because your (pro) definition of "high quality" is orders of magnitude different from what most low-end tools think it means.

And with video I can deal with a little stuttering in the editor as long as the audio stays in sync when I finally render. For good audio editing, hard real-time is non-optional.

Am I close?
--

Drew
New Re: I've heard that, but why?
Well, yeah. I record in 24b 96KHz, in stereo (or in one instance, with four incoming streams) which is 281.25 KB/s per stream... you really want to have those high numbers to get really good dynamic range in the original recording. My interface is pretty nice; its noise floor is a little over -105dB.

Hard real time is really only non-optional during the actual recording and digitization; at other times (basically, when I render out the song) it's okay. However, the downside of not having a machine that can keep up is that you can only do a best guess approximation of what it's going to sound like coming out until you actually render it and have a listen. I've been getting around it by selecting a few seconds and rendering it to get a feel for how the mix is going. That said, the audio up there is just off the floor, with the chatter between the two songs chopped out, so no mixing required. However, rendering that 9:07 took around fifty minutes, and that's with only one stereo track at 24b/96KHz -> 16b/44.1KHz; I can just imagine what it would've been like with a LOT of tracks being mixed into the render.

The video file ended up around 33 MB. The video software mp3 encoded the audio at 192KB/s. The source (16b/44.1KHz) wav file was 92.1 MB. The source data from the recording was around 300.5 MB.

While it took fifty minutes to go from the source audio to the CD quality wav (using "best" downsampling and no dithering) it only took about 25 to render that video there, at 320p. I also rendered a 480p (VGA) video, it took about forty minutes to do its schtick. I didn't go whole hog... I mean, we're talking about a photo there, ya know?

How big is 9:07 of HD uncompressed video with no audio? I'm asking because I have no idea... and maybe "reasonably uncompressed" or "very high quality" is a better modifier...

The biggest problem I'm running into is what to do with the original audio when I'm done with it? I don't have that big of a hard drive on that old laptop, and it's pretty easy to blow past a CD size when you're recording whole shows... but throwing it away seems such a waste.

Edit: btw- I have to say the new gear is so quiet it's amazing. The interface I was using before didn't support to super high quality audio, and was (literally, according to specs) 10,000x noisier.

When I listen to the high quality source audio, I can hear things like chairs squeaking, the tap on the footswitch that Josh makes when he's switching the leslie speed on the organ sound on his Nord, cars going by outside... though it also helps that I have very very nice condenser mics (a matched pair of Rode NT-5s).
Expand Edited by jake123 Sept. 24, 2010, 03:54:55 PM EDT
New ~ 1GB/minute
--

Drew
New Re: ~ 1GB/minute
Is that 1080p?
New Yup
AVCHD is highly compressed. You've got to trade storage size for the ability to do real-time editing. (Assuming your system has the horsepower to deal with the bandwidth in the first place.) That G/min is what you have to inflate it to before you can work with it.

There are a few apps now that can work with the raw AVCHD files in real time, but you're looking at 8-core Mac Pro with 4G.
--

Drew
New I'm all Ears
saith the Ferenghi.

I comprehend the numbers you're mentioning.. somewhat.

Putting on audio-conslutant hat, from days of yore when early Ge(rmanium) transistor kluges were attempting to match the best vacuum tube techno of the day: I applaud your efforts to rescue say, serious wide-range audio form the horror that is the mp3 spec (and now, almost the Only) widely circulated format :-/.

That is, merely (!?) matching the dynamic range of the (best-of the) vinyl LPs, re. full orchestra (or throw in a chorus, a pipe-organ, triangles --> string or brass bass -- too): needs likely even higher switching-freq than your current level. But at least, your recipe sounds as if it would be listenable playback [of said material] to a crank like moi. And that S/N ratio is equally admirable.. one Wants an 80dB dynamic range, where possible.

(This-all, of course, is why I'd need to do heroic techno things even to create a portable 'player') in no way connected to iTunes libs, etc. -- capable of replaying high quality material with the distortion, dynamic range specs of a '60s Uher Report-L 5"-reel portable player ... the size of a couple cigar boxes. I peddled my last one on ePay some years back. Alas, they were pretty heavy, with cast alloy cases and gel-cell or 5 D-size nicads. They could be got with 4-T or 2-T config. I recorded 2-T a piano soloist from audience, SF Symphony.. with his permission but not with Union-OK: ergo, mic in each hand, wires down sleeves, Uher under a 'coat'. Result was bitchin, played back on a Crown CX-822 into Marantz + KLH-Nines full-range electrostatic speakers. Etc.

This was the poor-man's Nagra, except that Uher specs were much better re flutter/wow and, IIRC distortion at -3 dB VU level. It used a quite sophisticated closed-loop DC-motor control + heavy capstan to achieve those specs.

Mixing and audio/video rendering -in-sync- aside; a vast complexity as you have described:
are you aware of any small 'digital' record/playback devices extant, that are rather small, aka equalling the best of analog 'Walkman-type' players of yesteryear? if not quite so small.
(I have too many Other-irons in fire to scheme to cobble up some kluge, likely via components not necessarily designed to play well together.)

Thanx for any tips


I, audiophile..
Music! an absolutely indispensable antidote, emollient to the cacophony of the Age, especially the biped-mouthnoise sort.

New Well, I've gotta tell you
the source file format I'm talking about (24b/96KHz .wav files) completely nuke the dynamic range available from old audio gear, and esp. vinyl. However, I'll agree with you that vinyl sounds better than anything you'll hear from ~99% of digital gear that's out there. There are a few reasons for this.

The first one is the natural compression that you get when you use something like vinyl, or even more so from old school 2" tape.

Part of this is because of how compression is achieved so as to make the storage requirements for portable players reasonable. MP3 is a lossy compression format, where the idea is to remove sound that most people won't notice so much. If you're looking for something better than that, I'd recommend getting a player that plays FLAC files, because flac is lossless. This means that at CD quality sound, an uncompressed wav file of a typical pop song will run you about 50 MB, a 128 kbs mp3 about five, and a flac about fifteen MB. This has ramifications for how much music you can store on a device. On the gripping hand, a typical pop song at the wav format I was using will run about 250 MB. So, if you're using something with eight gigs of storage, you can store 32 songs on it....

And there is another reason why this tech is awesome. It's because people like me can afford it. Audio quality is important, but not nearly as important as good music performed well... and having technology like this available for ~700$ is a thousand times better than the 2K$ 1/4" fostex reel to reel that I made my first recording on... and those are 1985 dollars, to boot. Far better quality for a fraction of the price, and since it goes into a computer the amount of tracking and overdubbing that I can do is limited only by the computer I plug it into. You can get a decent 16 track console for mixing for less than a thousand dollars now, whereas in the old days that kind of kit cost tens of thousands... and a 400 dollar computer nowadays can handle a tremendous amount, far in excess of that old fostex, which had but two ins.

btw- as an aside, the keys you hear there are being amplified through my Vox AC4: http://www.voxamps.c...ernclassic/ac4tv/ He has a Crate keyboard amp, but I think he's now considering getting a tube amp for his board... and this relates to why people like the old stuff. They like it because it's not super fidelious, which is good, esp. if the person playing knows how to use that lack of fidelity properly.

Edit: Huh, just cruised the Vox site and it looks like they're not making my AC15HTV anymore... which kind of sucks. They've got a new model that's probably pretty close, the AC15HW1X... but it's using the ECC83, not the EF86. Guess my amp's about to start appreciating now... (it's the 2007 50th Anniversary, serial number 518). Shit, I might have to go into hock again to get another one if there are still any in the distribution channel... those amps are just the BOMB.

The social implications of all this for music production are huge, and are a large part of why record companies are Going Away; their position depends on controlling both the means of production and the means of distribution, and digital technology is taking that control away from them from both ends.

Finally, the real issue with a playback device is that most of the devices out there have two big flaws; one is that the DAC runs at a low bitrate, and the other is that the amplifiers Suck Ass. What the bitrate the DAC can convert is an important spec for those devices... and the noise floor for the amp that runs the headphones is the other one.
Expand Edited by jake123 Sept. 25, 2010, 10:34:29 PM EDT
New Thanks much... daunting, mostly
Even with TByte drives for pennies, scanning-in my LPs and a few pro tapes would make only a handful of it-all 'portable', in any sense.

aka koan on my fridge:
Nothing is ever (really) simple..

Guess I keep the vinyl clean and take extra care of my Supex ctdge and lovely Linn-Sondek LP-12 player. Indefinitely. (Now I hear there's an electronic speed controller for the LP-12; never 'heard' the need for better than std. and transistor-free has its charms, too.)

Oh well.
New You should get out more
Vinyl's coming back. At least up here it is... there are two record stores (as in honest to god records) in my wee little town here, and several outlets where you can buy turntables etc... some of it is used, some of it is "old-new", and some of it is just new. If you want compression but want it to be better, compress to 320Kbs cbr (er, constant bit rate) mp3 with the -q option at zero; you'll end up with bigger files but nowhere close to full audio, and they'll be pretty good... way better than FM radio, for example.

Besides, even with all that... the quality of the amp in the portable player, the dac in the portable player, and of course most of all of the headphones you're listening to have a much bigger effect on the quality of your listening experience.

Seriously Ash, it's a case of having a tradeoff... you can get something the size of your thumb and stuff hundreds or thousands of songs in it. That it's never any worse than an FM radio doesn't seem like a big drawback to me.
New Which would you rather have ...
The entire catalog of every classical recording ever made, on a device the size of a deck of cards?

Or a hundred albums that you can only listen to from your den?

I don't take the time to listen to much music nowadays, but when I did, portable would win every time.
--

Drew
     In case anyone's interested - (jake123) - (10)
         I've heard that, but why? - (drook) - (4)
             Re: I've heard that, but why? - (jake123) - (3)
                 ~ 1GB/minute -NT - (drook) - (2)
                     Re: ~ 1GB/minute - (jake123) - (1)
                         Yup - (drook)
         I'm all Ears - (Ashton) - (4)
             Well, I've gotta tell you - (jake123) - (3)
                 Thanks much... daunting, mostly - (Ashton) - (2)
                     You should get out more - (jake123) - (1)
                         Which would you rather have ... - (drook)

LRPD that. Now.
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