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New It was on Pharyngula.
http://scienceblogs....to_get_sucked.php

PZ has a point.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who remembers the good old days of USENET.)
New PZ's point misses the Point, IMO
(Assuming that the communications from this Timonen guy are verbatim, and the report of events is straight.)

Whatever is the Master Plan for alterations at Dawkins' corner office, the attitude demonstrated towards the worker-bees -- reiterated in PZ-replies -- is more than just preemptively hostile and patronizing; the demeanor is obviously rude, crude (and the antithesis of even a soupçon of gratitude for all the free effort over years, which any normal person would deem appropriate.)

Then too, there's the irony of the parallel with The Ministry of Truth ... on a site which purports to be shining the searchlight of Pure Reason upon a world of demagogues? Now behaving like vandals and censors re. even the mere collecting of one's own material for preservation or relocation.

Have no dog in the fight, had only an inkling that there was a forum re Dawkins. I don't need to pick-a-side, even vicariously: IMO the manner in which this brouhaha was even allowed to develop is at the level of disgusting. Ultimately, blame devolves onto Dawkins, and however busy he likely is -- it IS his name attached to the site, the 'foundation' and thus, its machinations.

Methinks that PZ has taken the Econ 101 / Aynish view of, "It's Mine -- I can do anything I want, however scurrilously ungrateful I choose to be towards unpaid toilers in the day-to-day operations!!"
Ergo, J'accuse PZ of making a hasty, unprincipled assessment of some gratuitous and nasty pieces of work -- again, presuming that the reported quotes and chronology are not a tissue of lies.

Pity that a totem site, dedicated against the excrescenses and excesses of the lunatic-fringe of 'religionists' should behave like a Tea-bagger at a reception -- pissing in the punch bowl and mugging the help. Whatever devolves next, it certainly looks as if Dawkins' own aims (whatever they are) shall be hampered by ongoing animosity of the disaffected. Especially if those wholesale deletions are unrecoverable.
Will be interesting to see how many care and how Dawkins responds. Certainly more substantive than Murican Idle ... less fascinating than any cat strolling by..

New I think he's been there.
Like you, I haven't participated on RD.net (nor Pharyngula, in my case). I just read the front pages (rarely on RD.net). But I think they're being reasonable.

I think PZ's been through enough over the years to know that over-the-top tantrums by some is part of the price of having an internet presence. But, in the end, he doesn't owe any of his readers anything since they don't pay anything. That's just the way it is.

RD's letter on the episode is here. http://forum.richard...php?f=60&t=110356

Some pretty nasty stuff, there. :-(

Yes, it's very disruptive to many people when forum rules and software change. My reading is the load was getting too much, and there was too much off-topic stuff going on that was overloading the moderators. 2.27M posts on a moderated board is a lot. Maybe their new software and policies will be crap, but them's the breaks. The world will keep revolving. Readers will adjust. Sullivan and Fallows seem to do Ok without allowing any posted comments at all...

FWIW. ;-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New The thing not mentioned
There may in fact have been valuable original research presented there. Good, thorough peer review. World-class analysis. But if there was also over-the-top silliness and occasional outright stupidity, which do you think Dawkins has to answer for in interviews and debates?

"Why Mr. Dawkins, on your own site people are saying that ... "

He's the best-known atheist thinker and speaker in the world. He is the default "other side" whenever the media has a religious/creationist issue and they want to "balance" their story. The nature of that particular beast is that a site under his control is probably not the best place for doing certain types of original discussion.

We know the creationist/intelligent design crowd is perfectly happy to focus on trivial process issues, and latch onto open discussion as a sign that there is actually any doubt as to the truth. After enough of these "gotcha" moments, maybe Dawkins has decided he'd rather the freewheeling discussion move off to someone else's site, and only bring the finished products back to get the authority of his name attached.
--

Drew
New Concur with your reasoning..
Simple, Dawkins-like solution [WOULD have been] ~~

1) State some version of your apt guess / a need for separation next, etc.

2) Describe an orderly, sane, do-able! plan for a lateral arabesque of the foribus, acknowledging that many members have no other means of contact than their interactions in the present venue -- allowing time for an orderly moving to -->

3) Wherever ... a couple weeks' (??) open discussion conjures up: as an ALT-Dawkins forum, clearly detached from Dawkins.net and notably NOT related to D. and his .net.

4) Bask in the knowledge that one can do well by doing Good.

INSTEAD -- we have a Control Freak and his techies [who failed Sociology-Remedial and are proud of that) -- let loose amidst a spectrum of primadonnas; a soupçon of brilliant researchers (their original Work on-site)
-- diluted by a gaggle of sillies in love with their own weak-puns
== all interacting currently, like super-heated water in-pressure-vessel, ^just as the lid is removed^.

Hard for my poor grey cells to conceive a LESS-EPT manner for this otherwise simple transformation to have been 'designed'.
Decidedly GWBush/Cheney grade intelligence and action -- only, more like ~~ invading Iraq, Iran and Russia the same day.
With mercenaries fresh out of a drug rehab program (that failed.)

Other than that.. Heckuva Job, Brownie!


New Yeah, I still think it was handled poorly
Telling people explicitly not to try to share info and offer alternatives, then shut them down when they do it anyway ... not cool. That's the kind of thing you do when you want to keep the traffic and add control.
--

Drew
New Dawkins' reply
I think he wins the argument about 'splenetic' mindsets and downright disgusting metaphors, 10 to 0.
Indeed, absent apologies, why should he be sympathetic to their claimed loftier aims now? Still, that's not the entire dimension of the mischief on multiple 'sides'.

Unclear if he is (yet?) aware of the claimed 'fact' of the thousands of Moderator hours invested in the 'success of the site' (now seen to be truly Necessary 'Moderation' -- given the fulminations we see that the motley crew can spew so voluminously, when poked with a stick.) D. attributes all.. to his sidekick; this leaves a strong impression that, indeed D. has been and remains out-of-touch with the whole ball of wax, apparently all along. Thus, while the bile and invective are indeed Over-the-Top, now: D. needs to calmly assess the Über Führer mien and knee-jerk reactions of his fav cohort: in the immediate aftermath of such infantile actions as destroying [we don't know how reversibly] all 'historical presence' of, apparently not just a few erstwhile members.

Library Burning/ Hypatia's fate ... surely must be a part of D's zeitgeist and ought to be deemed Intolerable by someone of his umm, vocation? (fershure.. of his verbalizations to date.) If he leaves the vandalism uncorrected and the past data unrecoverable (for transport to some new venue) -- then he signals that he gets an F in sociology along with the arrogant techs and their Meister, his cohort. He shall be condoning the extreme behaviors noted -- apparently re-noted via a expanding ripple across the Webivorian cosmos.

IMO he needs to get educated about how that site was actually managed (whether or not, in retrospect he might have ordered otherwise, etc.) Some kind words about the Moderators' work having been indispensable to the daily operations would be a start. Only by realizing how little interest was shown by the T. Man all along (if indeed that be truthiness) -- can he appreciate the underlying tension twixt the daily toilers and their uncommunicative, claimed disdainful? 'manager'. Like corporate, say?

ie if this reply becomes D's only rejoinder, the mischief remains uncorrected, the deleted material gets eaten off the backups -- methinks he shall prolong the mondo Ill Will indefinitely, and the consequences may not be what he would wish, like all unpredictables.


Smart People doing Dumb Stuff; Movie at 11 and each hour overnight.
Sounds like a microcosm to moi..

New Dawkins apologizes and clarifies.
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5165

Cheers,
Scott.
New Sounds close to what I guessed
It's not that there was anything inherently wrong with the off-topic stuff, they just couldn't afford the overhead of maintaining it and -- and this is the part that's still unsaid -- of defending it.

Typical problem of flexible software is that the more you're able to do with it, the more you have to do with it. When you can't scale up the manpower any more, you either limit posting or limit flexibility. That's pretty much your only options.
--

Drew
     one for ash on language - (boxley) - (20)
         I no verbs ... I know, >> I'll search IWE for the rest! << - (Ashton) - (19)
             DON'T PANIC. - (Another Scott)
             Re: I no verbs ... I know, >> I'll search IWE for the rest! - (folkert) - (17)
                 not really applicable to this particular situation - (boxley) - (11)
                     That was more like what IWE were doing. - (static)
                     Scheisse! how'd you tumble onto THIS? - (Ashton) - (9)
                         It was on Pharyngula. - (Another Scott) - (8)
                             PZ's point misses the Point, IMO - (Ashton) - (7)
                                 I think he's been there. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                                     The thing not mentioned - (drook) - (2)
                                         Concur with your reasoning.. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                             Yeah, I still think it was handled poorly - (drook)
                                     Dawkins' reply - (Ashton) - (2)
                                         Dawkins apologizes and clarifies. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                             Sounds close to what I guessed - (drook)
                 Mea culpa.. - (Ashton) - (4)
                     well if you paid attention - (boxley) - (1)
                         Saw that -- thought it was about hi-tech massaging - (Ashton)
                     Re: Mea culpa.. - (malraux) - (1)
                         Thanks! - (Ashton)

Slices, dices, chops...
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