Oh, and the STFU is the standard thing I'd hear

Post #312,575 by crazy 8/15/09 9:56:53 AM Reply	Oh, and the STFU is the standard thing I'd hear Give a few holy rollers authority over a student body that is 90% believers. The remaining 10% better STFU or they'd get the shit beaten out of them. Based on your response, you'd be in the group beating the shit out of me.
Post #312,577 by boxley 8/15/09 10:38:49 AM Reply	not for that reason :-) nope, anyone is entitled to pray silently, anyone trying to strong arm prayers will get a dennis the peasant loud response from me these guys deserve to get crapped on a believing kid can pray quietly a non beleiver can scarf all the good stuff before the pray is ended thanx, bill
Post #312,616 by static 8/16/09 3:18:54 AM Reply	It sounds like that 90/10 thing which is the problem. From reading the article, the school seems otherwise fine with the Christian influence it has. Except that the ACLU chose to sue the school after a private complaint? The article doesn't say what attempts at dialog they made to sort it out before rolling out the lawyers. It implies there was none. Wade. Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers? A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
Post #312,620 by crazy 8/16/09 6:35:59 AM 8/16/09 6:37:23 AM Reply	Yo dude, you seem to have lost the key piece You really need to reread the article, and try to follow the timeline. This is a public school. It does not matter what the majority of the locals are fine with. It is obviously illegal behaviour. And this came about AFTER the school already had a run-in with the courts, agreed to cut that shit out, basically told the court to go fuck themselves after a few minutes of reconsideration (maybe they prayed on it and got divine guidance). Separation of church and state is one the key reasons this country was created. Sure, the original pilgrims were assholes, and they really wanted the right to enforce their type of harsh religion on everyone. That is why they were kicked out of England. The original colonies were groups of isolated religious states, run by petty dictators. Most states (before the US was created) had their own state religions, and a lot of people died, badly, when they blasphemed. No more. The state may not promote any religion, or legislate against lack of religion. This is a public institution that put in the employee handbook that they should push Christianity. And when called on it, pretended to agree to follow the law, and then told the court to fuck off. Game over. Put them in jail. Edited by crazy Aug. 16, 2009, 06:36:21 AM EDT Edited by crazy Aug. 16, 2009, 06:37:23 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #312,623 by static 8/16/09 9:14:26 AM Reply	Yes, I saw all of that. I did not see where it said what the ACLU's first action was. Was it to launch court action? Or was it to contact the school and begin a dialog? Sure the school prayers were illegal. Sure, school officials flouted the subsequent settlement. Silly people, they really shouldn't have done that, no matter what they - or I - believe. If they want to get the law changed, then that is not going to work. But I also found the initial summary wanting. If the ACLU simply did start court action on the basis of the private complaints, then I posit that would be like me taking to your car with a baseball bat because you keep parking in front of my driveway, instead of talking to you first. :-) Wade. Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers? A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
Post #312,624 by drook 8/16/09 10:13:40 AM Reply	Nope It would be like you've already been told by a court to stop parking in front of my driveway. You do it again, and instead of talking to you I have it towed. -- Drew
Post #312,631 by static 8/16/09 6:42:55 PM Reply	I'm talking about the step before that. Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers? A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
Post #312,625 by Another Scott 8/16/09 10:49:11 AM Reply	A couple of better summaries. http://www.aclu.org/...0prs20090508.html From May: PENSACOLA, FL Â A federal judge today made public a consent decree requiring school officials in Santa Rosa County, Florida to stop promoting their personal religious beliefs in public schools. The consent decree is the result of a lawsuit filed last year by the American Civil Liberties Union and the ACLU of Florida on behalf of two Pace High School students who alleged that school officials regularly promoted religion and led prayers at school events. Among other things, it prohibits school officials from promoting or endorsing prayers during school functions and organizing school-sponsored religious services. "The court has ensured that decisions about religion will be left in the hands of families and faith communities and not public school officials," said Benjamin Stevenson, an ACLU of Florida staff attorney based in Pensacola who led the case. "Religious freedom is best promoted when the government stays out of religion. Now, students and their families can feel comfortable holding and expressing their own religious beliefs, knowing that school officials will no longer impose their particular religious beliefs on students at school. This is a truly victorious day for the Constitution and for religious freedom in Florida." [...] Following the school board's admission, ACLU attorneys worked closely with district officials to develop an accord that would bring the school district into compliance with the U.S. and Florida Constitutions. The resulting consent decree, signed by U.S. District Court Judge M.C. Rodgers, states that: Â School officials' promotion of their personal religious beliefs in school and at school functions violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and the "no aid" provision of the Florida Constitution; Â School officials are permanently prohibited from promoting, advancing, endorsing, participating in or causing prayers during or in conjunction with school events; Â School officials are permanently prohibited from planning, organizing, financing, promoting or sponsoring religious services, including baccalaureate services; Â School officials are permanently prohibited from holding school events at a religious venue when an alternative secular venue is reasonably suitable; Â School officials are permanently prohibited from promoting their personal religious beliefs to students in class or during a school event; Â The district shall pay damages to both plaintiffs in the amount of $1.00; and Â School officials shall comply with the Federal Equal Access Act. "The parties' agreement and the court's order go a long way toward securing religious liberty in Santa Rosa County public schools," said Daniel Mach, Director of Litigation for the ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief. "In our constitutional system, students and parents should have the right to practice their faith Â or no faith at all Â without school officials endorsing or promoting any particular religious viewpoints." The order also requires that school officials distribute it to all district employees. [...] The consent decree is here: http://www.aclu.org/...7lgl20090508.html Americans United (for the Separation of Church and State)'s take: http://blog.au.org/2...pushing-religion/ But less than two weeks after the court injunction, Lay asked Freeman to offer an invocational prayer at a luncheon for school personnel and booster club members. A board member present at the event reported the violation. Now, Lay and Freeman could face fines or jail time for violating the court order. A hearing is scheduled for Sept. 19. Instead reprimanding the pair as bad role models for breaking the law, some are trying to turn these two men into Religious Right martyrs. LayÂs pastor, the Rev. Ted Traylor of the Olive Baptist Church, called Lay a Âfamily man with great integrity.Â He believes Lay is standing up against an unconstitutional decree by the court. [...] Earlier in the year, Lay spoke out at a rally at his church about the schoolÂs agreement to keep religion out of school events. He declared, ÂNo way are we going to back down, back off, lay down or roll over. IÂm old. I donÂt want to fight, but I still have a few rounds left in me.Â That day, hundreds of students and parents cheered him on to fight the court order. Now even a Web site has been created to raise money for their defense. IOW, it's an orchestrated breaking of the court order. There was nothing for the ACLU to discuss with them - the court's order was clear. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #312,626 by boxley 8/16/09 11:12:34 AM Reply	the aclu only gets involved in egregious behavior long after the people with the problem have given up hope of solving it. One of the few groups I have actually donated money to and have never regretted it afterwards.
Post #312,632 by static 8/16/09 6:46:20 PM Reply	See, this is the type of thing I'm asking. So they sue first and seek discussion afterward? Is this the type of action they have a reputation for? Wading in with guns blazing, so to speak? Wade. Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers? A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
Post #312,643 by crazy 8/16/09 11:49:36 PM Reply	Ok, now I get it Before it was obstinate ignorance. In my part it was lazyness. It was clear from that summary to me, and I didn't care enough to do your research for you. But then Another Scott did the legwork, pulled the critical points, yes, I did read the full article and it was as obvious as it gets. They were SHOVING their religion down the throat of the student body. Your general attitude is that we can all be nice people, talk it out, work it out, jeez, why ya gotta get the court's involved type of person. BECAUSE I've been on the recieving end of that state sponsored Christian education. And I know how damaging it is to the families of the non dominate religion. You didn't want to address any of the issue. You just want to know if they were attacked by the ACLU. Oh no! Don't be mean to the poor sad wonderful educators, it must all be a simple misunderstanding. You know what? They should have been attacked a lot harder. Jail the bastards. Let them be martyrs. You want to have a say from across the pond? At least try to stick on the issue.
Post #312,649 by static 8/17/09 9:36:03 AM Reply	It's all a matter of perspective. Since you've acknowledged in this thread that I am coming from a viewpoint outside the US, all you really had to say a few replies earlier was that, yes, the ACLU's modus operandi is to take legal action. I didn't know that and it was an assumption the original articles and those Another Scott also excerpted all made. Not wholly surprising, given their target audience is residents of the US who could reasonably be expected to already know that. I know intellectually that evangelising any religion in the US within a government institution is illegal (and yes, I did need reminding). Your, ah, emotional response to the topic is quite strange to me because such activity is not illegal in Australia. I was not attacking your response or defending their wrong doing. Or at least, that was not what I thought I was doing. It wasn't even what I was talking about. My "complaint", if you want to call it that, was that the original issue was addressed by pulling the ACLU on to the stage and they promptly sue! To which I quite innocently said "why was that their first response?" as it seems rather incendienary. Now I know that that is what they do. Any in all likelihood, the original students who contacted them knew this. Not to belabour the point, but I did not. Like I said, it was a simple matter of perspective. Wade. Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers? A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
Post #312,650 by drook 8/17/09 10:10:03 AM Reply	Question for you Is there a dominant religious belief in Australia? I seriously don't know. So for a sense of perspective based on what I do know about Australia ... In large parts of the U.S. being a member of any minority religious faith, including no faith, bears comparison to being an aborigine in the early 1900s. No, Jewish and atheist children are not taken from their families. But the school boards and local law enforcement make sure to indoctrinate them into Christian beliefs all the same. If an organization dedicated to protecting the rights of aborigines had approached the local authorities and requested a meeting to discuss what they were doing, how would they have been received? With an honest effort to discuss the issue? Or maybe with threats and intimidation? That is the reception you will receive today in the rural South if you ask them to stop proselytizing to your kids in school. That's not an exaggeration. See the Jena Six ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_Six ) for an example from three years ago. -- Drew
Post #312,654 by boxley 8/17/09 10:58:01 AM Reply	confused, where does religion come into Jena 6? I live in the deep south and the only religion taught in our elementary school is secular humanism, I have to remind the teachers that teaching children that mother nature is real is verboten. Of course the district has a shitload of private christian schools where I am sure they are all dosed regularly
Post #312,656 by drook 8/17/09 11:07:53 AM Reply	It's a proxy for "people like us" The Klan uses Christian symbolism, even as they bomb black (Christian) churches. And they use the same symbol when they light it on the Jewish family's lawn. Point is, what they are really pushing is conformity. The fact that their current mindset is mostly Christian evangelical is an implementation detail. -- Drew
Post #312,657 by boxley 8/17/09 11:50:16 AM Reply	Ah, agree with your second paragraph conformity is treasured hereabouts
Post #312,675 by static 8/17/09 7:34:03 PM Reply	Answers. Is there a dominant religious belief in Australia? I seriously don't know. Yes, there is. And it could probably be called 'Christian' but to dice things more accurately, far more Australians are 'religious' about sport, usually some sort of football. Socially, we're British by descent, but we do import from other cultures. And significantly, we never had a revolution against Mother England (they learnt from the US's; when it looked like one might be starting here, they decided to talk to us about independance). Because of this, there is a certain evangelical rabidity that Australians do not, as a rule, have. You may have heard the phrase "She'll be right, mate" as an Australianism: this embodies a lot of the Australian psyche. If it wasn't compulsary, voter turnout at elections would probably be around 15%. Issues with recent immigrants and refugees don't focus so much on their religious practices, as much as their assimilation. There have been concerns about specific Islamic developments, but very rarely is the focus on anything but how "unAustralian" things might be. Many state schools offer a form of religious education called 'scripture', which is takes about an hour a week and is run with cooperation of the local churches. Students are free to opt-out and the school will provide an alternate program for those who do. This program does struggle, though, with lack of people to teach. I don't know how this fares in areas with a high level of Muslim children. Or Jews. But then, I've heard that in both cases, they are more likely to be placed in private schools, anyway. If an organization dedicated to protecting the rights of aborigines had approached the local authorities and requested a meeting to discuss what they were doing, how would they have been received? With an honest effort to discuss the issue? Or maybe with threats and intimidation? Usually with an honest effort to discuss the issue. Or at least that's what each side would believe they were doing. If talks break down, the next recourse tends to be civil disobedience, or trial by media, especially if one side just refuses to even talk. People do try very hard to make themselves heard. (Frivolous lawsuits do get thrown out in Australian courts; magistrates and judges do not like people wasting the courts time and will tell them so directly. There is provision in several laws for the court process to be halted and the parties sent to negotiation or mediation.) One good example is the so-called Aboriginal Tent Embassy. This was classic civil disobedience dating from 1972 where some Aborigines simply camped on the lawn of Parliament House because the McMahon government refused to consider Aboriginal land rights. There was police action a few times, but neither side rolled out the lawyers. To give you a good idea of how alien us Aussies can find rural southurn US, even by proxy, have you ever seen the Top Gear US Special? The British presenters drove through Alabama with a task that saw them seriously teasing the residents about their beliefs, religious and social. This turned out to be far more dangerous than the show's producers ever thought possible. And the presenters could not quite believe the responses, either. You would get the same response from most Aussies. (The same anti-gay, anti-religious messages would invite reasonably harmless ridicule in both Britan and Australia. In Alabama, people were shocked and horrified. And then the presenters were shot at.) Wade. Q:Is it proper to eat cheeseburgers with your fingers? A:No, the fingers should be eaten separately.
Post #312,678 by boxley 8/17/09 8:08:17 PM Reply	anecdote about alabama circa 1977 was working as a gas leak inspector in arough part of town. My partners truck was keyed and the arial ripped off whie we were working on the next block. The next morning my partner complained bitterly to the foreman and didnt want to complete the job unless he was given a city truck. Foreman (white) went into the crew canteen (black) and asked "who are the two toughest niggers in there." two fella volunteered and the forman told them to watch the truck while we worked. Of course they were delighted to have a day just standing around watching us two white guys worked. Afterwards we grabbed a beer, I asked them (me being young and stupid) how they could take the boss calling them niggers. They replied that they had gone to highschool together and had known him their whole lives so it was no big deal. However if I was to call them a nigger they would probably kill me. Alabama is a far different world than the rest of the US. Mind yer manners and yer business you will be fine, rock the boat and there would be hell to pay.
Post #312,680 by drook 8/17/09 8:52:12 PM Reply	There's your answer In Alabama, people were shocked and horrified. And then the presenters were shot at. That's why the ACLU tends to lead with lawyers. If it doesn't work, at least they make good cannon fodder. -- Drew
Post #312,684 by mhuber 8/18/09 1:15:27 AM Reply	Same thing with Dillinger No attempt at dialog, no negotiations to find an agreeable level of bank robbery.

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