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New Stop calling Squidley a shill
By now, we all know that Squidely insists that the Windows-IE mangling is a technical marvel, rather than an abusive tactic to strangle Netscape, despite overwhelming, opposing evidence and arguments. This has lead to statements that he's a Microsoft shill. This is tantamount to accusations of lack of integrity and corruption. Without more evidence, I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt and regard him as merely 'blockheaded'.

Such inability to question Microsoft propaganda does happen in real life. I know of one such person. He believes the Windows 9x line is extremely stable, despite a 98 upgrade disaster and the occasional crash. His jaw dropped at the X-Box specs when it was still at design stage and believing the marketing demo meant a working prototype. Despite being an experienced user since DOS, he adopts every annoying Windows 98 gimmick, such as switching off file extensions and displaying folders as web pages. He has worked in development and helpdesk before and he is definitely not a Microsoft shill.

So, give Squidley the benefit of the doubt. Let's just say he's too enamoured to realise that market success and technical excellence aren't synonymous.
Microsoft Outlook - one, big, macro virus portal.
New Seconded.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Thirded.
I, too, have worked with someone who thought The Microsoft Way was the way to go. So much so that he was gambling his business on it. He really didn't know how to react to how different Linux was - the vastly improved scripting, the quite different approach to problem solving, the utter stability...

Whilst I haven't been a part of the current fracas with Squidley, I'd much rather consider him mis-guided than deliberately subversive.

Wade.

"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"

New Sorry, but I doubt it.
For one thing, "blockheaded" is too mild by far -- he'd have to be the most amazingly ultra-stupid über-moron of all times; frankly, I doubt anyone can be that stupid and still remember to breathe all the time.

Second, as Ben pointed out, the persona he projects here is remarkably one-sided: He never posts *anything* but Microsoft apologia. Don't "blockheads" have any interests in life besides some Cause?

Well, *maybe* they don't... I doubt it, bit it is *possible*. Likewise, I suppose it's possible he doesn't get paid for doing what he does... But so what? That would only make him *technically* "not a shill", in the strictest sense of the definition -- which is just sophistry.

No, as long as he posts only on one subject like any shill, as imperviously to reason as any shill, and following the party line however obviously wrong it may be, like any shill... Then, in effect, he *is being* a shill, albeit possibly an unpaid one.

You can of course call him "an unpaid effectively shill-like advocacy troll" or something, but I prefer somewhat less cumbersome language: That is, for all intents and purposes, "a shill".

"If it walks like a duck", and all that.
   Christian R. Conrad
Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower.
-- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764|Andrew Grygus]
New Monumental stupidity is not unheard of
I do not consider a refusal to accept overwhelming evidence, by itself, as evidence of intentional deceit. I would regard that as dogma. After all, there are people who believe the Earth is flat, or that the biblical flood really happened or that Elvis is still alive. I prefer to attribute incompetance, rather than conspiracy. Call me an optimist, if you wish.

We may have different meanings of 'shill'. To me, it means someone deliberately lying for gain. Whereas, I believe Squidley believes the MS propaganda and is trying to educate us as an altruistic act. A better word might be 'zombie' or 'droid'.
Microsoft Outlook - one, big, macro virus portal.
New Not shill, shrill
Like some people go through life as normal as you and I until the shrill* button gets pressed, peta projectile vomiters and porno gets mentioned and joe regular is somehow spouting about his penchant for bestiality and his hatred of fur coats.
shrill
thanx,
bill
"I'm selling a hammer," he says. "They can beat nails with it, or their dog."
Richard Eaton spy software innovator
New Call that...
...a fucking flame?


Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
New Disagreement
As Christian correctly pointed out, my reason for thinking that Squidley is a shill have far less to do with devotion to 1 Microsoft Way than it does with posting patterns.

The only times I remember Squidley showing up here are during major Microsoft controversies, at which point this ID posted in the Microsoft forum and got a long flamewar going. This pattern is rather suspicious. A real person would be liable to show up in other forums. One would expect someone who is really that devoted to Microsoft and is technically competent to, for instance, post in the Windows forum, or the .NET discussion in the programming forum, etc. A real person would also not only show up when the stakes are high for Microsoft for external reason. (And never show up just because we are having a good row about Microsoft.)

So what does fit?

Well we have here a fairly small and isolated community with a large number of people known to post cogent and persuasive anti-Microsoft comments in a variety of online forums. I submit that if Microsoft has a strategy of trying to manipulate the display of information in public forums, it makes perfect sense at key points for them to tie up the energy of this group by involving the most vocal of us in a pointless, content-free little flamewar with limited public visibility. In other words while an independent person, no matter how devoted to Microsoft, doesn't fit what Squidley does, a shill definitely does.

I also have one more tidbit for people who think I am spinning a paranoid fantasy. Take a look at the [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=28979|response] to my accusation that Squidley was being paid to post here:

Unlike me, you are paid to carry on this discussion at length.

Why would you say that? Is it inconceivable that we could simply disagree?

Note that Microsoft has been burnt several times by having shills claim outright that they weren't Microsoft employees. As a result they have become more careful about that particular lie. As you see, Squidley is careful to dodge the point and avoids saying one way or the other whether I am right. I submit that the reaction that I would expect from a normal person to an accusation that far out of left field would be something like, Huh? The reaction I would have expected from a shill is..exactly what I got.

Now I might be right, and I might be wrong. But as long as I believe that Squidley is a shill, I am going to call a spade a spade. (And even if Squidley isn't a shill, the effect has been the same. Squidley long ago passed the point where I care about giving the benefit of the doubt. This isn't a court of law.)

Ben
New Shill or not, he doesn't advance much of an argument.
Hi,

Whether Squidley works for W-E or MS or gets paid by Bill doesn't bother me much.

What bothers me is that his apparent intent in posting is disingenuous. He asks rhetorical questions of us, or questions "why was the tying claim remanded?" or the like when these questions can be answered by his examination of the original sources. He obviously thinks that he's making a point, or he's hoping to make a point on the response, but he's trying to have his opponents do all the work. As you point out, he often doesn't answer direct questions while expecting answers from others.

If he wants to advance a position and back it up, fine and dandy. Healthy debate is good. Elisa-esque rhetorical questions don't add much to the conversation though.

In short, I think he's a troll and not a shill. Trolls get old fast.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New That is exactly the idea
Put out minimal energy at points where you are afraid that contrary public discussion would be strongly detrimental to your interests to sap as many opposing resources as you can.

Disingenuous questions here is a rather effective way to execute that strategy, don't you think?

I invite everyone to take a look at the flamewar in the Microsoft forum, look at how much energy went on our part into that, and ask what some of those people, if they had been involved in other discussions on other forums, might have done. Thin in particular in terms of arguments advanced for throwing the book at Microsoft, which might be picked up by reporters and then find their way back to a certain judge.

Hell. There were arguments that appeared in that discussion which might have done damage elsewhere! But it didn't. All of that knowledge and perspective was bottled up here where it was safe (for Microsoft.

Not a bad investment...

Ben
New Un-intended consequences?
While that may be his aim, what he is accomplishing is to have us generate very clear, pointed counters to his points.

Which is fine, if they remain here.

But I also frequent other online forums and have no problem posting in those. ZD used to be a great place to encounter the MS astroturf.
New That could be the point
I don't mean to butt in, but I've read through the posts, and. . .

Argument or not, if a shill's job is to see to it that nothing critical of Microsoft goes unanswered--or rather, un-responded-to--then he's doing a heck of a job.

The downside from the shill's standpoint is that vying for the last word only elicits more discussion about MS.

The upside is that pat rhetoric is very effective on MS "true believers".

BTW, I know I'm using the word wrong, but do you ever wonder how the word "rhetoric" has come to carry a negative connotation?
Mike
     Stop calling Squidley a shill - (warmachine) - (11)
         Seconded. -NT - (admin)
         Thirded. - (static)
         Sorry, but I doubt it. - (CRConrad) - (2)
             Monumental stupidity is not unheard of - (warmachine)
             Not shill, shrill - (boxley)
         Call that... - (pwhysall)
         Disagreement - (ben_tilly) - (4)
             Shill or not, he doesn't advance much of an argument. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                 That is exactly the idea - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                     Un-intended consequences? - (Brandioch)
                 That could be the point - (morganek)

Go into the light!
76 ms