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New Yeah the huge loss of oil revenue
which they couldn't do anything about didn't cause the collapse, but spending on the arms race which they could choose how to respond to did cause the collapse. Boy, you sold me on that one.
Seamus
New hate to break it to you
but in the 70's and 80's russia was a net importer of energy, not a producer, but hey, dont let facts bother your worldview
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New The idea is that the fall of oil prices
and loss of market share cost them hard currency without which they couldn't buy grain, let alone guns or other forms of energy:

The Search for Loans

The money was suddenly gone. The Soviet Union tried to create a consortium of 300 banks to provide a large loan for the Soviet Union in 1989, but was informed that only five of them would participate and, as a result, the loan would be twenty times smaller than needed. The Soviet Union then received a final warning from the Deutsche Bank and from its international partners that the funds would never come from commercial sources. Instead, if the Soviet Union urgently needed the money, it would have to start negotiations directly with Western governments about so-called politically motivated credits.

In 1985 the idea that the Soviet Union would begin bargaining for money in exchange for political concessions would have sounded absolutely preposterous to the Soviet leadership. In 1989 it became a reality, and Gorbachev understood the need for at least $100 billion from the West to prop up the oil-dependent Soviet economy. According to chairman of the State Planning Committee Yury Maslyukov:

We understand that the only source of hard currency is, of course, the source of oil. . . . If we do not make all the necessary decisions now, next year may turn out to be beyond our worst nightmares. . . . As for the socialist countries, they may all end up in a most critical situation. All this will lead us to a veritable collapse, and not only us, but our whole system.[7]

Ryzhkov commented at the same meeting:

The Vneshekonombank's [Soviet Foreign Trade Bank] guarantees are needed, but it cannot provide them. . . . If there is no oil, there will be no national economy.[8]

It is fascinating to hear now the opinion that Eduard Shevardnadze, then foreign minister, "betrayed" the interest of the Soviet Union--especially when documents that were prepared for him at the time are available. In reality, a number of Soviet agencies urged him to secure at any cost these "politically motivated credits."[9]

In the meantime, the Soviet Union started to have severe food shortages, and grain deliveries were not being made to large cities. One of Gorbachev's closest associates, Anatoly Cherniayev, described the situation in Moscow in March 1991:

If [the grain] cannot be obtained somewhere, famine may come by June. . . . Moscow has probably never seen anything like that throughout its history--even in its hungriest years.[10]


From the Soviet Collapse article.

Seamus
     More betrayus.... - (Simon_Jester) - (108)
         Is he calling our generals traitors? - (Seamus)
         a little long on hyperbole - (boxley) - (96)
             I don't usually agree with you - (Seamus) - (95)
                 petraus like macnamara - (boxley) - (94)
                     What duties are those, Box? - (jb4)
                     Talk about chicken shit - (Seamus)
                     Your "will do what his boss tells him" kind of chicken... - (CRConrad) - (91)
                         so, they are loading iraqis into ovens now? -NT - (boxley) - (90)
                             No, not as far as I know. Why, does that somehow make... - (CRConrad) - (89)
                                 try reading my original post - (boxley) - (88)
                                     SIGH...It gets more and more wrong. - (CRConrad) - (87)
                                         naw, the germans were cheering all the way thru 1941 - (boxley) - (86)
                                             Uuh... Yes. Logic much, mr Sequitur Strawman? - (CRConrad) - (85)
                                                 were you not comparing a point in time? if not - (boxley) - (84)
                                                     Two, actually: Germany, 1932, and USA, 2007. - (CRConrad) - (83)
                                                         long as we dont invade russia in winter - (boxley) - (82)
                                                             WTF is WRONG with you? Are you stoned out of your... - (CRConrad) - (81)
                                                                 Now THERE is a funny non-seq -NT - (bepatient) - (80)
                                                                     Non? Seemed to follow pretty directly, dinnit? How not? -NT - (CRConrad)
                                                                     Nah - (crazy) - (78)
                                                                         the lady's penchant for petty revenge with all the - (boxley) - (77)
                                                                             Nope, that still doesn't explain WHY you're so mad. - (CRConrad) - (17)
                                                                                 isnt isnt 28 years of clinton bush enuff? - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                     Re: isnt isnt 28 years of clinton bush enuff? - (Seamus) - (2)
                                                                                         yer right, it just seemed like 28 years -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                             It will seem like alot longer, heaven forbid. -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                                 It's because of the pronoun - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                                                     bullcrap - (boxley)
                                                                                 ms I dont know in charge of the gummint? - (boxley) - (10)
                                                                                     Um, her senior thesis isn't sealed any more. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                     Bravo! Yeah, that's *exactly* what I mean. - (CRConrad) - (8)
                                                                                         Hey, back in the day - My Gramma used to get reams of those - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                             Reminds me of a passage in NDCC. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                         funny, you seem ready to convict the current - (boxley) - (5)
                                                                                             When was she named an unindicted co-conspirator? -NT - (Seamus)
                                                                                             Uhh... "slim evidence" for the lies that got you into Iraq? - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                                                                 you gargle yer koolaid this am? - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                                     You're wrong AGAIN! - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                                                         :-) -NT - (boxley)
                                                                             As opposed to shrub's penchant for major revenge? - (crazy) - (54)
                                                                                 Fred still says Saddam had WMDs and a nuke program. - (Another Scott) - (53)
                                                                                     box doesn't care - (crazy) - (3)
                                                                                         Perhaps boxley is like me. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                             I did, once :-) - (imqwerky)
                                                                                         exactly -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                     Heck, alot of folks said that - (bepatient) - (48)
                                                                                         she's a whatever it takes kind of guy - (boxley)
                                                                                         He said it *two days* ago. He hasn't been paying attention. - (Another Scott) - (46)
                                                                                             the same she who admits she didnt read the intel report? -NT - (boxley) - (35)
                                                                                                 How many did? - (Another Scott) - (34)
                                                                                                     a lazy dimbulb is what we need - (boxley) - (33)
                                                                                                         Yeah look at what Reagan did for the country - (Seamus) - (32)
                                                                                                             dot com era, end of cold war yup all bad things -NT - (boxley) - (31)
                                                                                                                 Like the other Bill(Hmm,has anyone seen them both together?) - (CRConrad)
                                                                                                                 Reagan had nothing to do with the dot com era - (Seamus) - (29)
                                                                                                                     of course lowering taxes hurt the economy...right -NT - (boxley) - (28)
                                                                                                                         Reading for comprehension - try it some time - (Seamus) - (7)
                                                                                                                             Macroeconomics - study it sometime. -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                                                 Wasn't the issue -NT - (Seamus)
                                                                                                                             reagan had nothing to do with the collapse of the sovs - (boxley) - (4)
                                                                                                                                 Did you even read the paper by Yegor Gaidar? - (Seamus) - (3)
                                                                                                                                     You must have something against - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                                                                         No, its believing that you can cut taxes, increase spending - (Seamus)
                                                                                                                                         HOW ROBUST IS THE CURRENT ECONOMIC EXPANSION? (new thread) - (Seamus)
                                                                                                                         The issue was did Reagan cause the collapse of the USSR - (Seamus) - (8)
                                                                                                                             can you say disinformatsya? probably not -NT - (boxley) - (7)
                                                                                                                                 I forgot the AEI is all about spreading Russian - (Seamus) - (6)
                                                                                                                                     if they are trying not to repeat past mistakes - (boxley) - (5)
                                                                                                                                         A fear of Soviet control of the middle east wasn't a - (Seamus) - (4)
                                                                                                                                             not for the saudis - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                 Yeah the huge loss of oil revenue - (Seamus) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                     hate to break it to you - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                         The idea is that the fall of oil prices - (Seamus)
                                                                                                                         The other issue was that Reagan caused the dot com era - (Seamus) - (10)
                                                                                                                             Maybe a more neutral source - (Seamus) - (9)
                                                                                                                                 Wow, a complete ignorance of globalization - (bepatient) - (8)
                                                                                                                                     So, what is it you're saying here? - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                                                                                                         Re: So, what is it you're saying here? - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                                                             The claim was that the Reagan deficits produced the - (Seamus)
                                                                                                                                     A chaired professor and former Dept chairman - (Seamus) - (4)
                                                                                                                                         dunno, alternate theories by walter williams are offered - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                                                                             Yes, a supply-sider. There the only ones left who - (Seamus) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                 well listening to hillary giving away money - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                     A supply sider is someone who thinks stimulating - (Seamus)
                                                                                             Yes. - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                                                                 Not hardly. Fred's an out of touch lightweight. -NT - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                                                                     We'll see if the party machinery can mold him - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                                         I think the R machinery knows that none of them can win. ;-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                         They won't get a chance to mold him - (Seamus)
                                                                                                 Apparently - (Simon_Jester)
                                                                                             In his defense, from all the transcripts I've seen, he... - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                                                                 Hmmm... - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                                                                     Ok, yup, in *that* sense he was wrong. - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                                                         I'm not willing to give him a break. - (Another Scott)
                                                                             Thank youm thank you, thank you! :) - (a6l6e6x) - (3)
                                                                                 Are you sure it wouldn't be...? - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                                                     It's a legacy of the "Song Title Game". It's not recent. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                     I'm a native European. - (a6l6e6x)
         Main difference - (bepatient) - (9)
             How much of a difference is this? Not much. -NT - (Seamus)
             Actually, I don't believe that... - (Simon_Jester) - (7)
                 You don't believe an easily recognizable fact? - (bepatient) - (6)
                     <man type=straw /> - (jb4)
                     Re: You don't believe an easily recognizable fact? - (Simon_Jester) - (4)
                         You know... - (bepatient) - (3)
                             And you determined that how? - (hnick) - (2)
                                 Simple really - (bepatient) - (1)
                                     I do think some of your analysis is correct (new thread) - (Simon_Jester)

*SHUN*
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