I don't think she should

Post #293,319 by jake123 9/20/07 7:29:52 PM Reply	I don't think she should fundamentally, they were right.
Post #293,325 by bepatient 9/20/07 8:31:22 PM Reply	I don't really care if they were right or not that level of discourse has no place. Not for Republicans or Democrats. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #293,326 by Simon_Jester 9/20/07 8:53:53 PM Reply	COUGH
Post #293,328 by bepatient 9/20/07 10:00:11 PM Reply	Maybe I should be more clear Any current member of the government should not endorse a personal insult to a high ranking military officer doing his job. moveon is free to say what they want. great country we live in. Doesn't mean it should be agreed with or endorsed. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #293,445 by jb4 9/22/07 10:43:54 PM 9/22/07 10:44:45 PM Reply	But its quite OK to endorse a personal insult to a Senator when running for president, isn't it BeeP? Even when the insult is shown to be a lie, isn't that correct, BeeP? Just wanna make sure of your moral consistency compass...wouldn't want to get lead astray into the land of fundamentalist hypocrisy, now would I? jb4 "It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment." — George W. Bush, when asked if he believed Iraq was in a state of civil war (Newsweek, 26 Feb 07) Edited by jb4 Sept. 22, 2007, 10:44:45 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #293,452 by bepatient 9/23/07 12:40:06 AM Reply	I don't believe I've ever said that. But you're welcome to pretend I did if it makes you feel better. Seems to happen alot around here. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #293,455 by Ashton 9/23/07 4:47:57 AM Reply	> Would that 11th Commandment include Colin Powell, then? < Any current member of the government should not endorse a personal insult to a high ranking military officer doing his job. Is he guilty of serving as shill for selective data-taking; guilty of {willingly?} allowing his previous credence to be attached to a hysterical piece of propaganda, meant to [successfully] rush towards an illegal Invasion? Because.. by now - it has become apparent that his credibility, perhaps his entire reputation for honesty -- is irretrievably tanked -- though I haven't seen any polling organization yet willing to put such a question to the Vox Populi - so starkly. I mean.. if you saw it in spreadsheet form - then it would be True-ish, right? There is thus - precedent for this Admin actively seeking flaks (whose rep is better that their own) - an extremely easy bar to beat , all things considered - over six years' experience. As to doing his job - What Petraeus has just done: precisely is what is Not a military officer's job; not (even) in the US, by all previous carefully cultivated attitudes thus: precedence. They Do Not interpose themselves between polarized Politicians, 'promise' 'results' -- whose probability is already seen to be parlously Low: and call it simply, "military intelligence". cf. Douglas Mac Arthur VS Harry Truman. He Fired the sucker for political meddling. Shrub INVITES it == if it fits his plan. {sniff} and Shrub fancies he's 'like HST' (too). Delusional as usual. Oh - and - (There is a recent link in one of these threads to which you replied, disdainfully dismissing a Character Assessment of Petraeus by his Superior Officer; dismissed as ~~ "Oh, nobody should pay any attention to military squabbles, etc." ie 'a mere bagatelle,' to which dismissal I here reply: Oh. Really? - and accuse you of selective data taking. Once again. A superior officer's assessment is of considerable relevance to someone who knows-not the person in question - only.. 'not to You, merely.') Failing some miraculous occurrence, whereby suddenly -- 98% of all persons in Iraq, overnight suffer near total-amnesia -- Gen Petraeus shall join Gen. : Powell in well-earned obloquy. This, quite independently of anything MoveOn has said or will say. It is only a matter of, whenever it becomes apparent -?- that all that PowerPunt-aided palaver Was pure "string it along til Shrub leaves" BS, just as so many Vox Populi clearly suspect. So then, now that :'s UN speech has been limned by countless dissections - and its data been seen to be fabricated / a pure propaganda operation - is it OK to diss : publically, yet? Or does a uniform convey permanent unaccountability, in that customized ethics manual? Related matter for ethical pundits - What are your thoughts on War Crimes trials, in the aftermath of bogus invasions and the rendering of a once-functioning country into a state of near-total infrastructure ruination and accelerating - - - > towards Failed State Status? Hmm? Do you Really go with: "if we broke it we must fix it?" (: said that IIRC) And if We ..simply.. CANNOT 'fix' it - what does your ethics manual decree for our Just Punishment? ('Course we'd have to do it Ourselves; we have all those nukes.) Prosecutors are standing by for your Instructions, deacon.
Post #293,460 by Another Scott 9/23/07 8:53:00 AM Reply	Many good points. Thanks. But Powell was a civilian at the time he was serving as Secretary of State (though one can argue that 4 star generals are never really civilians after they retire). His reputation was built on his military career though. Also, MacArthur was fired for trying to go over Truman's head. Petraeus is getting flack for being Bush's poodle. While both are political roles, they're on opposite sides. I think you're right that Petraeus did himself a disservice in his testimony, but I'm sure he remembers what happened to [link\|http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/consequences/2003/0228pentagoncontra.htm\|Shinseki] after his testimony to the Senate. (Frontline has a good interview with [link\|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/invasion/interviews/fallows.html\|James Fallows] which covers the battles over troop levels, Wolfowitz and Shinseki, etc.) Your Powell quote is a variation of the "Pottery Barn rule" (which he denied coining), but he [link\|http://creatingspaces.blogspot.com/2007/05/harrison-owen-interview-and-more-colin.html\|has written something similar] (from his autobiography, p.35-36): I learned that being in charge means making decisions, no matter how unpleasant. If it's broke, fix it. When you do, you win the gratitude of the people who have been suffering under the bad situation. I learned in a college drill competition that you cannot let the mission suffer, or make the majority pay to spare the feelings of an individual. . . . Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off. Thanks. Cheers, Scott.
Post #293,466 by bepatient 9/23/07 10:42:55 AM Reply	I don't understand you. really. learn english. then put it in a spreadsheet for me. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #293,475 by Simon_Jester 9/23/07 12:48:32 PM Reply	I almost brought up the Truman-McDouglas issue But does it really apply in this case. McDouglas was fired - not a personal attack. Everyone would agree that the President is the CIC and has the right to fire Generals. So, <shrug>, it doesn't apply.
Post #293,327 by crazy 9/20/07 9:59:38 PM Reply	So the dems should bend over and take it They finally grow a spine and now that upsets you. How convenient. They're wrong when they're right as far as your concerned
Post #293,330 by bepatient 9/20/07 10:02:16 PM Reply	What? Are you saying that moveon is the democratic party? Because the democratic party is trying not to say that. Sitting on her hands and not saying anything is NOT growing a spine, its cowardice. Growing a spine would be saying "damned right I agree" OR "they should shut up". She's riding the fence. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #293,332 by crazy 9/20/07 10:15:38 PM Reply	Damn close Moveon seems to represent the majority of democratic opinion out there. On the other hand, Hillary got burned bad enough the 1st time around when she played health queen and thought she was above political compromise. So, here's the deal. This is primary season. Her goal is to coast through, pandering a BIT to the far left, but no too much, and gain the nomination. It is VERY important not to say too much to piss off the middle of the road undecided people who will have to make the swing vote in the final election. If it pissed you off that she's straddling the fence, too damn bad. You weren't voting for her anyway no matter what she said. I don't mind at all.
Post #293,334 by Another Scott 9/20/07 10:35:11 PM Reply	Indeed. Asking Hillary to play the game of denouncing an ad that she didn't place is even less meaningful than demanding that all Republicans denounce Congressman Goode's [link\|http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/20/lawmaker.koran/\|comments]. I expect that MoveOn.org got a lot more hits and more donations as a result of the ad than any other bit of print advertizing they've done. They should be giving their headline writer a bonus, even though it was childish IMO. The right is trying to make Hillary is this generation's Ted Kennedy. She knows enough not to play the game by the Republican rules. Cheers, Scott.
Post #293,346 by Silverlock 9/21/07 7:48:09 AM Reply	"Betray us", just quoting the troops. ----------------------------------------- Atheism is a religion in the same sense that not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Post #293,348 by bepatient 9/21/07 8:56:57 AM Reply	2 completely different things. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #293,357 by Ashton 9/21/07 5:18:52 PM 9/21/07 5:23:50 PM Reply	FWIW - Cindy Sheehan's response re MoveOn ad [Ed. Belonged 'neath top post /crazy -from whence I clicked Reply. I do no make mistrakes.] Yes, yes I. Know. {sheesh} that she is deemed by the cognoscenti to be naively in search of an actual Authentic Reasessment (!!) of how the whole fucking US political establishment needs to be reinvented; nevertheless, she has often the most concise view of Naked Emperors and their bloviating Watchers (nor - as is evident here - is she without reservations on various MoveOn tactics, etc. etc.) That we Shall Not reinvent Anything which is counter to the sources of largest PAC$, the Top 0.1% -- goes as much without-saying as, ~ 'the US is a sick-sicko nest of blind historically-iggerant mass-consuming xenophobic narcissists'. Would that MORE, not fewer.. parents of these dis-honored dead (ARE there any others, yet ???) could muster some variety of focussed passion against the diseased troglodytes we elevate, simply because we are repeatedly too inept to observe the evident signs of their diseases - in advance. September 21, 2007 General Betray-Us and MoveOn.org Cindy Sheehan I have often been critical of MoveOn.org, basically because I feel, for the most part that they support Democrats to the detriment of democracy. However, MoveOn.org was a big help to me at Camp Casey in August \ufffd05 and organized the thousands of candlelight vigils that occurred across the country. I will always be grateful to them for that. I had a policy when my children were younger. I would always try to catch them doing something \ufffdright\ufffd (sharing, being kind, etc) and I would praise them and give them a treat. In that vein, I have to give my 100% support to MoveOn.org in regards to their right-on ad in the NYT that has become even the object of a Senate denouncement. It must be hard for MoveOn.org to have 21 Democratic Senators vote to denounce the ad [sucking-up? Again?] when MoveOn.org has been so supportive of the party. However, I don\ufffdt think that it\ufffds appropriate for the Senate to be voting on newspaper ads, when it is a clear 1st Amendment right of anyone in our representative republic to place such ads, whether one agrees with them or not, and with almost half the Senate Dems voting to denounce MoveOn\ufffds freedom of speech and the Dem leadership taking impeachment \ufffdoff the table\ufffd and giving BushCo more latitude to spy on us, I wonder which part of our Constitution the Dems will defile next? Today, George, in his unbridled and un-matched arrogance and just abject stupidity called the MoveOn ad \ufffddisgusting.\ufffd What I find more disgusting is a cowardly Commander in Chief and all of his supposed underlings lying to our country and the world and sending our young troops to fight, die, be wounded and kill innocent people when they were too \ufffdbusy\ufffd to do the same in their mistake of a war: Vietnam. What I find disgusting is CNN (where I just saw Eli Parisier of MoveOn debate a pro-war person) rarely criticizes the occupation or shows the tragic consequences of this war and they are raising money so a poor Iraqi boy can have reconstructive surgery on his badly burned face. That is great, but what about examining the reasons little Youssif was burned in the first place and start calling for an immediate withdrawal of troops? What about the millions of other Iraqis who have been wounded or displaced? Who is telling their stories and raising money for them to be whole and have homes? What I find disgusting is General Betray-Us allowing himself to be used as a political force field for the lying administration and lying himself. Sectarian violence is not down 80%, the General Accounting Office report and the fact that hundreds of Iraqis are killed every month 50,000 leave their homes on a monthly basis directly contradict those \ufffdfacts.\ufffd The only reason some places are safer in Iraq is because the neighborhoods have been ethnically cleansed and the sectarian militias are providing security to small geographic areas. In the very violent south; Shi\ufffda Mahdi are fighting Shi\ufffda Badr. It is a disaster that needs to be faced and solved now, not put away until the spring or prolonged so Dems can get the White House back in '08. General Betray-Us has not only betrayed America and his oath of service, but he has betrayed the very troops he should care about more than being an \ufffdass-kissing little chicken-shit\ufffd to a Commander in Chief who has spent years betraying the troops. It is time to truly support our troops and start withdrawing them immediately. Not to \ufffdpre-surge\ufffd levels but to \ufffdpre-invasion\ufffd levels. It is time to listen to the people of Iraq and force the mercenary killers and other contractors to leave and give the people of Iraq back their jobs (50% unemployment rate in some areas, some areas higher) and their country. The occupation of Iraq is a disaster and I applaud MoveOn for moving a little closer to the true \ufffdanti-war\ufffd movement and encourage them to come with us farther. Anyone who is concerned with the rapid slide to fascism should be supporting MoveOn in this battle. Anyone who cares about democracy over Democrats (or Rethugs) should join me in supporting MoveOn in this particular struggle and in bringing MoveOn more fully to the table with the peace movement. Thanks MoveOn for speaking for the majority of Americans and please stick to your so-called guns. The struggle is worthwhile! [link\|http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=7wi5n3zxB6fazA1H0seTAwm%2B7LrpYbM%2F\| Donate to GSFP and the Camp Casey Peace Institute] Subscribe to our Listserve] Edited by Ashton Sept. 21, 2007, 05:23:50 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #293,358 by Seamus 9/21/07 5:33:40 PM Reply	This reminds me of what Keith Olbermann had to say [link\|http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20896378/\|Olbermann to Bush: \ufffdYour hypocrisy is so vast\ufffd] ... \ufffdAnd I was disappointed that not more leaders in the Democrat party spoke out strongly against that kind of ad. \ufffdAnd that leads me to come to this conclusion: that most Democrats are afraid of irritating a left-wing group like Moveon.org or more afraid of irritating them, than they are of irritating the United States military.\ufffd \ufffdThat was a sorry deal.\ufffd First off, it\ufffds \ufffdDemocrat-ic\ufffd party. You keep pretending you\ufffdre not a politician, so stop using words your party made up. Show a little respect. Secondly, you could say this seriously after the advertising/mugging of Senator Max Cleland? After the swift-boating of John Kerry? But most importantly, making that the last question? So that there was no chance at a follow-up? So nobody could point out, as Chris Matthews so incisively did, a week ago tonight, that you were the one who inappropriately interjected General Petraeus into the political dialogue of this nation in the first place! Deliberately, premeditatedly, and virtually without precedent, you shanghaied a military man as your personal spokesman and now you\ufffdre complaining about the outcome, and then running away from the microphone? Seamus
Post #293,365 by Ashton 9/21/07 6:58:52 PM Reply	I find it surprising that Olbermann is still on.. Given the Times. I get to see him occasionally / friend with cable. (I'd think he needs a better editor, given the length of some of his rants.. except that, unlike most of us -- even his filler digressions are so often al punte, too.) Hypocrisy -- if ever there were a Better Single Word summing up the Peeple, their Leader and the process by which they choose each other - I can't imagine that word. We have a whole fucking year to hear reiteration of the spineless defending the jellyfish VS the chicken hawks defending their, 'I'll-hold-your-coat: let's see you and him fight forever'. And I've seen two replays of exactly the same mindless button-pushing (proven to be just as effective, Each Time.) We appear incapable of memory. Now it is more grotesque, louder.. atop the utter boring refrain. Only.. this time around there's no Smothers Brothers or Laugh-in [General Bull Right] to be cancelled - so I'm waiting for wimpy-MSNBC's 'reasons' when Olbermann gets the axe. Hoped to be able to see this all as comedy, but the recent inundation of WW-II reminiscences (what.. with no 'anniversary' thing?) reminds what is at stake, now again: acquiescing to Brown Shirts. Wonder if PBS could do a dramatizarion of It Can't Happen Here -??- despite [link\|http://www.saukherald.com/ftp/lewis/stories.html\| this opinion] of problems with today's short attention span "The content and observations are still as fresh and crisp as they were in 1920, said Jim Umhoefer, writer and member of the Sinclair Lewis Foundation. Umhoefer said the writing style is harder to read for today's audience due to the wordiness."Main Street is the perception of one individual on small-town America," said Paul Theisen, mayor of Sauk Centre." I don't think his perception was correct. I don't think it ever did exist the way he portrayed it." That's re Main Street, but ~ for the other. Other problems - relating the pre-'30s milieu to people who have no idea who Father Coughlan, (the radio preacher model) was (nor G\ufffdbbels, nor..) Oh well. One Year in repetition purgatory: we are All sentenced to that, without trial and no appeal. Pics of lots of dead 21 yo's on Lehrer closing screen, too - like just now. We have no shame.
Post #293,367 by Seamus 9/21/07 7:27:05 PM Reply	He is signed until 2011 according to Wikipedia I don't have cable, but I watch his countdown clips on the [link\|http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/\|Countdown] website. Seamus
Post #293,369 by Ashton 9/21/07 8:28:40 PM Reply	Hmm, there's a thought - Even on dial-up - it can thrash away while doing chores, thought the ratio:visual minutes is laughable. Hard to imagine him wanting to stay that long (?) but his contract could always be bought out ..if screaming evangels are at the studio HQ, with burning faggots. :-0
Post #293,329 by Another Scott 9/20/07 10:00:45 PM Reply	Petraeus is a big boy - I'm sure he's been called worse. This episode reminds me of a story I heard in grad school: One of the profs was a B-52 pilot in Vietnam. He said that after surviving SAMs flying past his plane, one learns not to take university politics seriously. Or, in other words, the quote attributed to Kissinger applies to the MoveOn ad - "There is no politics quite as vicious as academic politics . . . because in academia there is so little at stake." Gen. Petraeus being called a name out of 2nd grade isn't worth 1% of the attention it's getting. As some others have pointed out, MoveOn fell into the oldest play in the Republican playbook. They love nothing better than distracting people by creating brouhahas about images and style rather than addressing real issues of substance. The press eats this stuff up because they don't have to do any work, yet it sells papers and brings eyeballs. Cheers, Scott.
Post #293,331 by bepatient 9/20/07 10:07:06 PM Reply	I'm sure he is and I'm sure he doesn't care. they chose their lot...and there's an expectation that they respond. All she had to do was her JOB. Be in the room and vote. Nope. Couldn't even do that. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #293,343 by Ashton 9/21/07 6:24:40 AM Reply	1.5 minutes of Hannity, Rush et al == 50 of this Move-On ad, which - compared to the adolescent level which is consistent with those 24/7 demagogues? - seems almost Homeric. Yes, the level was juvenile. Think Oh Pun. Tell me again about the daily drumbeat of Clinton murdering his aide, the utterly beastly crap spread non-stop by Rovian-trained Dirty Tricks battalions, virtually from the day of [a real] election. But cleaned up and put forth in that academese which has Never been a part of Chicken-hawk level character assassinations, from 54-40 or Fight onwards --> through Swift Boats - Clearly the General has been handed {{whew}} the Hottest Potato since Napoleon's return from Moscow (so eloquently diagrammed as to body-count/mile, by our Friend Tufte.) Since he is not a fool {benefit-of-doubt..} - he assuredly realizes that he can promise NOTHING to which the Neoconmen could attach that chimera, er Victory!! - even if wearing a radiation-proof suit and an 11 meter pole. ie By Now, virtually every person who Wants to review the Slapstick-grade series of utterly Stupid Decidering that got Baghdad to now ONE HOUR of electricity.. most days - has reviewed. So the 'betrayal' word (of the Trust of Honest People) is, while a tad premature when it came out: given what was next limned to us all - it was not at all hyperbole. In flacking for the Berk, so is his/our fate attached to his Leader's madness - apparently for just long enough to run out his term without being run out on a rail (unless ... unless, say, Petraeus were to receive a Vietnam era 'fragging', say ??) Potato-holder GONE - What. To. Do. :-0 (Hell even the [link\|http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/09/20/texas_iraq/index.html?source=newsletter\| Texans!] are tired of seeing 3rd Tours + the pile of heaped detached limbs - on their {very high percentage of} that Overall Maimed List.) You can accuse of dissembling, sugar-coating, obfuscating ... flacking! Nicely Nicely or -?- you can do it the standard Murican Way. Which Move-On chose. It seems that you are throwing in your lot with the folks who think that Move-On should now Go Away == read that: "..if only we could Kill all them filthy Comsymps Right Now - why.. them fuckers Don't Agree with our Fantasy!!" Well, ARE YA? Tell us where you Stand. So we can mark where you Fall. It Could Come in the Form of a Mushroom Cloud LLC

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